What if Mo Farah had gone for a WR 1500m

Metric Miler wrote:

Do you know what the ultimate beauty of this is Ventolin? You are WRONG.

You are wrong because Farah didn't run anywhere close to 3:27 flat and nothing can change history.

End of.

Why don't you impress us and try and predict what a runner will do before a race instead?

Ah but he did! Didn't you see Kipchoge running 2:06+ today in a tactical race?

No, Kiprop's 400 split in Monaco was 54.2, and Farah's was 54.9.

Not the 54.6 nonsense you put.

Farah's first 2 laps went 54.9, 56.2 for 1:51.1. That's pretty even running and much better than a lot of sub 3:30 performances.

If you look at his splits in terms of 300, 700, 1100, then it's even more obvious - 41.1, 56.0, 56.4, 55.4.

Farah's splits in 2013 were v similar, - 55.0, 56.6.

Kiprop's run a 3:27 off a 53.5.

EL G ran 3:27.6 off a first 400 in 54.6, faster than Farah.

Lagat ran 54.6 in his 3:26.3

Komen 52.6 in his 3:29.0

EL G 54.2 in his 3:26.1

EL G 54.8 in his 3:26.9 in Zurich '02.

And none of the above are 46 or 47 second 400m runners. They are all 1500/5000 types.

So again, as Metric Miler pointed out, you're completely wrong.

I want to add that it is Makhloufi not 'maloofi'. If anyone is 'clueless' about the sport it is you; you don't even know the names of the top athletes.

Guys,

When replying to ventolin, please do it vertically. Answer with one or two word insults, with short explanation. It must mirror his style for best effect. Thank you.

Ventolin3. Your response below is the type of posts we do not like.you call the person "inept" and "clueless" twice. Also you go to the trouble to try and nitpick every single line they said. That creates animosity on the forums. You can stick to your mainpoints without insulting the other person. Please try and do that.

Please restore my post to the Kipchoge 10000m thread.

Throw the moron off the board.

He obviously doesn't want to act like a sane human being.

I know my splits are accurate, thanks.

Mo was 54.9/56.2 on first 2 laps, barely more than a second different. This is quite usual in 1500m races.

ventolin^3 wrote:

Deanouk wrote:No, Kiprop's 400 split in Monaco was 54.2, and Farah's was 54.9

no

no officiial splits for them

i have measured distances with freeze-frame

Asbel ~ 54.1

mo ~ 54.6 / 54.7

your spits are out

The clock stops at 400m and doesn't re-start until well after the rest of the field has passed, so your 'freeze framing' idea is clearly not accurate.

At 1:18 into the race linked: -

The pacer's body is directly in front of the Omega symbol on the outside advertising boards, and at the beginning of a white line on the inside of the track. The time on the clock is 52.0. Kiprop hits the same spot at 52.5, meaning he is 0.5sec behind.

Farah hits that exact same spot when the clock shows 53.2, meaning he is 1.2 seconds behind the pacer about 12m before the start/400m line. There is no discernible change in position or speed between that point and the 400m split time 1.7 secs later.

The pacer hits the 400m line at 53.72, so Kiprop would have gone through 0.5 sec after, in 54.2, and Farah would be 1.2secs behind the pacer, meaning his 400m split would be 54.9.

Now looking at the exact same spot at the end of lap 2, the first pacer hits that mark at 1:48.5, before easing up and being over taken by the 2nd pacer before the 800m mark is reached.

Pacer 2, the leader at 800m, hits that same spot at 1:48.7, with Kiprop 0.2 behind at 1:48.9 and Farah a further 0.6 behind (0.8 behind leader at 800m) Kiprop at 1:49.5.

Thus pacer 2 stops the clock at 1:50.37 at 800m with Kiprop 0.2 behind at 1:50.5 and Farah 0.6 behind him, at 1:51.1.

This proves that your splits for Farah of 54.6/56.6 are wrong.

As I correctly posted earlier, Kiprop's splits for the first 2 laps were 54.2/56.3,

and Farah's a more even 54.9/56.2.

There are few 1:51 800splits in an elite 1500 where the athlete has reached that point with a more even distribution of pace and effort than Farah did in that race.

If he were in 3:27 flat pace, 54.5 just behind Kiprop, followed by a 56.2, would have been way within his capabilities.

Ventolin shows he doesn't know what he's talking about by suggesting El G, Ngeny, Morceli, Lagat & Kiprop were all capable of running 47 or quicker for 400m. There is not a shred of evidence to back that up and I seriously doubt any could have broken 47.5 in an open 400 at peak.

Certainly El G is on record as stating he could only run 48 something.

The reason they have run 3:26/3:27 is because of their disproportionate over distance endurance, not their 400 speed, enabling them to win medals and set fast times in 3 & 5 k races. And that was basically down to EPO. Strange that none of them are from countries with stringent national testing. The whole testing legislation thing in Kenya is just a smoke screen.

Cram couldn't break 48 for 400 and he's a better half miler than any of them.

Most of the clean 3:29/3:30 guys had or have better 400 speed than those with better 1500 times.

if kiprop was .2 behind 1:50.37, then he was closer to 1:50.6 than 1:50.5, and if Farah was .6 behind Kiprop, then he was 1:51.2, not 1:51.1, not that it matters. Farah could have stayed back from Kiprop the first lap and even splitted to 800m, and then he would have been able to draft the rest of the way--but he couldn't do it because he wasn't good enough. And it is immaterial how much better Kiprop could have run with a better pacer, because the question is just why Farah couldn't stick with him if he was really ready for 3:27. 55.2 and 55.3 would have put Farah right behind Kiprop at 800m and then he would have had the opportunity to be hoovered to the finish--but he's not a 3:27 flat guy under his current training program.

Deanouk wrote:I know my splits are accurate, thanks

no

you haven't done the work accurately enough

Mo was 54.9/56.2 on first 2 laps, barely more than a second different

no

his splits were 54.6/54.7 & 2nd lap pf 56.6

that is 2s difference which is huge

This is quite usual in 1500m race.

not 2s it isn't for anywhere close to ideal

in addition,i asked you to name any guy apart from the legends of hicham/bernie/noah/asbel who have held on from a 54+ start to a 3'28+

who are they ???

no

you used flawed method

i stopped the vid at 53.78 on big screen, measured Asbel's height on a big screen & from that extrapolated distance to pacer & to mo & added small correction factor for curve

from the speed of travel of the pacer, a figure accurate to 0.1s is obtained

wrong method

why did you not notice that the camera is moving ???

the positions for the pacer, Asbel & mo are all from a moving camera

that means all your timings are wrong because you are not looking at the same camera shot for all 3 runners

why did you not notice the camera is moving ???

Asbel ~ 54.1

mo ~ 54.6/54.7

wrong again

same flawed method

camera is moving on 2nd lap just as on 1st

your estimates are once again wrong

i'm only concerned with mo & using freeze-frame & distance conversion from height method combined with speed gives mo a 2nd lap of ~ 56.6 for a 1'51.2 / 1'51.3 split

wrong

my method is more accurate

you did not realise that the camera is moving so that the splits you offer have different camera angle & therefore have huge error

your method is wrong & inaccurate

no

54.1 / 56.4

wrong

54.6 or 54.7 with 56.6

wrong

he had ~ 2s split difference between the laps using a non-flawed method which doesn't have huge error of a moving camera

i asked you : how many 54+ opening laps led to a 3'28+ or better from guys not called hicham/bernie/noah or asbel ???

no

he woudn't

he had ~ 49.5 speed for which a virtually solo ~ 54.6/54.7 was waay too fast compared to expected drafted ~ 55-low

his race was already ruined by that virtually solo 54.6/54.7 without even considering even more solo running to bell

to run 3'28.9 off that start & virtually solo to bell was monumental achievement & off smooth paced 55-low pace to bell, he couda gone

~ 3'27-flat

jjjjjj wrote:if kiprop was .2 behind 1:50.37, then he was closer to 1:50.6 than 1:50.5, and if Farah was .6 behind Kiprop, then he was 1:51.2, not 1:51.1, not that it matters. Farah could have stayed back from Kiprop the first lap and even splitted to 800m, and then he would have been able to draft the rest of the way--but he couldn't do it because he wasn't good enough. And it is immaterial how much better Kiprop could have run with a better pacer, because the question is just why Farah couldn't stick with him if he was really ready for 3:27. 55.2 and 55.3 would have put Farah right behind Kiprop at 800m and then he would have had the opportunity to be hoovered to the finish--but he's not a 3:27 flat guy under his current training program.

no

i said mo in a perfect race wouda expected ~ 55.2 drafted on 1st lap & same pace drafted to bell

he got no drafting off stoopid pacers going thru in 53.78 !!! & mo ran a virtually solo 54.6/54.7

you didn't add in the drafting consideration

expected 55.2-drafted with ~ 0.7s/lap advantage from drafting is worth solo ~ 55.9 on 1st lap

so, in effect, mo ran an actual solo 54.6/54.7 when a drafting on a 55.9 soo wouda given required 55.2 for a 3'27.0

mo was shafted by ~ 1.2 / 1.3s on 1st lap from double whammy of too fast pacers + lack of drafting

off this double handicap & the subsequent further lack of drafting, it was a stupendous run to clock 3'28.9

smoothly paced/drafted to bell at 55.2 pace, he was capable of a last lap 55.2 for 3'27-flat

This is your problem. You think in a line up the man fastest at 1500m is automatically the man fastest at 400m and 800m. That is just plain wrong.

A 3:30 guy running 47/48 (who BTW) does not mean a 3:26 guy would run 46/47.

That is actually a childish thought process akin to thinking Bolt would win the 400 or 800 at Rio.

Asbel cannot run 1:41 its just madness. A conversion ratio from 800 to 1500 of around 2.0 is common with 1500m specialists and is true of Asbel.

E.g.:

1:47 -- 3:34, 1:45 -- 3:30, 1:44 -- 3:28, 1:43 -- 3:26

Those times actually represent the PBs of guys on the circuits now and in the past.

If Asbel gets into WR shape ~ 3:25.5 then he will run 1:42. I know for you a 1:42 actually means 1:40, but for the rest of us we will see Kiprop cross the tape in 1:42 low.

is kiprop good to draft behind because he is so tall or does he not push any wind because he is so thin?

Anyone who can run 3:26 is not a "pure 1500" runner (whatever that meaningless term might actually be intended to mean). They're a world class athlete, likely capable of elite finals from 800m to 5000m and probably further.

no

if you run basically only 1500s you are a "pure" 1500 runner

being able to run a good or even great 800 off that is expected but it doesn't alter the fact you are a "pure" 1500 guy

the extrapolation to 5000 is wrong

the good/great 800 is built-in, the 5k is not

that coud be anything from 12'30 to 14'00

i have done "mathematical tables" which are based just on math not statistics

go find

"Ventolin worksheet"

here :

https://2008olympictrialsakatommyleonard.shutterfly.com/filecabinet

look up what 3'30.00 is worth for other events, meaning 800 or 400 specifically

then compare with iaaf tables

do not bother comparing them with iaaf tables for 10k which are a nonsense as they absurdly try to statistically make an "extinct" race have the same near top-end value as the top-talent 1500

see what iaaf tables give for 3'30 for a 10k & what mine, the "mathematical" equivalent if as much talent in 10k as 1500 & 10k run as frequently on circuit as 1500

A laughable and lame attempt at trying to show any credibility.

Your method of working out splits is nonsense.

Farah's first lap was no faster than 54.9.

Your suggestion they ran 54.1 and 54.5 is clearly wrong just using the need eye. There is no way Farah is only 0.4 behind Kiprop at 400m. That's less than 3m in distance. Anyone with a clue can see that there was 5m between them.