Jack Daniel's insane workouts

Okay, I delved into my third edition a little more and saw the 5 mi maximum for rep distance but also definitely confirmed it would not be with 2:00 recovery. (It would be at least four.)

It helps to actual read the whole book, however. In his schedule for a 1500 runner the most voluminous 800s workout at R pace he lists is 3200 meters total. That is only two thirds of the 4800 meters a 60 mi per week runner could handle going strictly by the formula.

I think there are two ways to look at this. 1) If you don't want to work hard, you're probably not going to break 4 for the mile. 2) I can take absolutely any program, bend it to the limits of reason, and make it look harder than it ever was intended to be. That's not the point. The point is to run fast.

i was around when Daniels first came out and it made almost every program that adopted it easier. Most of the coaches I knew pushed the paces harder because they thought it was too easy. The only time that wasn't true was high school kids doing straight tempo runs.

Long Time Daniels wrote:

Okay, I delved into my third edition a little more and saw the 5 mi maximum for rep distance but also definitely confirmed it would not be with 2:00 recovery. (It would be at least four.)

It helps to actual read the whole book, however. In his schedule for a 1500 runner the most voluminous 800s workout at R pace he lists is 3200 meters total. That is only two thirds of the 4800 meters a 60 mi per week runner could handle going strictly by the formula.

You certainly have a point there. This exact 10x800 workout @mile (rep) pace is not mentioned in daniels' book BUT:

He lists some example rep sessions right after he explained this term in detail. For runners averaging 51-60 miles he suggests for example

10x400 @ rep pace

5x800 @ rep pace

Therefore he thinks that both workouts are doable for those runners and gives them a similar difficulty. For runners averaging more than 80 miles (so actually even less than 100) he suggests 20x400 @ rep pace and, as we have seen above, basically a 10x800 @ rep pace as well since they are comparably taxing.

Things to do in Bham wrote:

Pikachu wrote:

Webb did 9 x 800 avg. 2:02/03 in a once in a lifetime workout. I know a guy that ran 13:1x and he never ran 10 x 800 faster than 2:05ish. So it seems you have been around much faster people than 3:46 milers or 13:10 runners. I guess you live with Bekele, Geb or someone like this. Then tell the PR and the specific workout, I'm interested.

Did your friends get 800m jog? That rest is crazy. 800m jog is always around 3 to start and

Good point! They did about 2' rec. I guess I thought of a jog like I do it (I usually jog at 4:20 - 5'/K). Now when you slog it out at 7 or 8'/K or so it MIGHT be possible but still a ball buster once in a season wo. I just feel like it's a crap workout to be honest, haha... My buddies and me more likely would do workouts at 80 or 90 % effort and pack those in some nice high mileage weeks with lots of steady or tempo running... But of course you could argue the 13:1x guy would be a sub 13 guy with more lactic work - I just dont believe it. Best regards

Pikachu

I ran 14:12. 1000m reps with that recovery is a piece of cake (especially for a Vdot 77) I ran 4xmile 4:19-26 with 400m jog rest. A harder workout for me (albeit not Daniels) was 6x800@2:12 with 100m jog recovery.

I ran for Daniels for three years.

We never did anything of the workouts mentioned.

Daniel's illusions wrote:

Ok, let's take a sub-elite runner averaging 100 mpw with the following PR's:

Mile: 3:58

3k: 7:53

5k: 13:44

All those times are equivalent to a 'VDOT' value of 77.

Although I really like Daniel's scientific approach to running some of his suggested workouts are imo not even remotely possible.

1) 10x 1k w/ 400-600 jog in 2:48

2) 6x mile w/ 800 jog in 4:25

Both Vo2max workouts @ I pace have a max distance of 10k and a shorter rest than effort time.

3) 10x 800 w/ 800 jog in 2:00

(that sounds absolutely insane)

8k distance @ R pace and equal distance recovery just as he suggests it.

4) 3x 600 @ 800 (FR) pace with 1k jog

Certainly easier than the first 3 but still pretty impossible with a 1k jog rest (about 5 min)

Have you ever done anything close to those workouts ?

Opinions

I have seen those workouts done at a faster pace with shorter rest. So yes, they are remotely possible.

I never improved under Jack and I ran for him for 2 years. His system is obviously not for everyone and for what he gave me--written workouts only--he was expensive and communicated with me very little. I was not ever impressed.

I don't buy it. You saw someone do 10 x 800 sub 2:00 w/ less recovery? You saw a fast runner do 3 x 600 @ faster than 800 pace w/ less rec.? You must be joking. I'm out of this fantasy-thread.

Back in college me and another guy slammed down some Jack before going for run. Results were not good.

On letsrun there is always someone who knows someone who is apparently the most talented runner ob the planet.

You have seen the 3x600 probably quite faster than 600 race pace once, right ?

OK, OP finally admits he completely made up the 10x800 workout. So a very misleading thread and first post.

Also, JD makes it VERY clear that any R pace work is to be done with COMPLETE recovery, and that if your next rep can't be done with the same quality and form as the previous one, you either need longer recovery, or to bag the workout. R pace work is meant to work on form and efficiency, and the skill of running (sort of like strides at various distances). Not to stress the systems that I and T paces stress.

The recovery times he lists are guides, not set in stone numbers you have to follow. JD tells you to follow how you are feeling. But this board is obsessed with recovery times as usual...always the shorter the better! Idiotic if you don't understand the purpose of the session.

Of course this board is obsessed with recoveries, the recoveries is an equal part of the session. If I am doing 100m jogs in 35s or if I am taking 5 minutes complete rest, then this dramatically changes the times I can run for the reps.

It` s better 20 x 400s rest down to 120 bpm.