There are some good posts on Let's run. I won't name the Olympic athlete who said I could use something he said on this blog. But he told me over the phone what he wrote and where to find it.
So there is a lot of legitimate stuff put on here.
On the other hand I cannot bench press 500 pounds!
eotbs wrote:
Thank you, wejo, for taking the time to address my thread.
I do value the fact that this forum is a bastion of free speech compared to many other forums, both running- and non-running-related. However, I seriously worry about the impact on the sport from such a volume of baseless accusations.
If someone tests positive, then it is news, and there is nothing that can be done but report on it properly, as I think you do. If there is strong reason to suspect doping (e.g. a sudden onset of musculature on a formerly frail person, eyewitness report of an athlete using syringes, etc.), then I understand and accept that such things should be discussed.
Contrarily, I see increasing suspicion that an American is doping because s/he runs fast or is actually competitive on a world-level instead of just a national level. I see non-American runners also suspected of doping because they simply ran fast. Worst of all, I see some athletes suspected of doping with no reason even stated in the post. This last variety is the one that I despise the most, and would hope you could find a way to discourage, although I would also like to see "they ran fast, therefore they doped" mentalities discouraged as well.
I do believe that the doping problem won't be fixed without discussion of it. However, without strong evidence of likelihood of doping, I think suspicion of doping is more harmful to the sport than helpful.
Perhaps I have the cause & effect backward, but I don't think it matters. Honestly, how healthy is it to hold onto the past so tightly? As an example, 2 to 3 track-generations ago, many 400m athletes doped. So is LaShawn Merritt dirty? To me, it feels like saying, "90 years ago, many wealthy people were bootleggers. Therefore, as a financially successful person, you must be selling drugs on the side." It's not productive, and really not fair.
[BClerk wrote:Totally speculating, but I'm guessing there are more technical factors at play. I doubt there are enough moderators that each new post is monitored quickly.
...
But to your point, the OP lumped together a wide variety of posts. His/her examples are nothing more than their own preferences, and don't reflect any kind of objective system for what is trolling or valuable discussion.
...
It's true, it would be difficult to implement complete moderation of troll-speculation, due to the sheer volume. I thought about that while writing my original post, but I would still like to see them make a dent in it.
I'm not sure how I was unclear about the types of posts I considered worth moderating. I do not want posts about speculation of doping without decently strong evidence stated. I do not consider fast times to be decently strong.
eotbs wrote:
Shannon Rowbury, an Olympian! a World Championships medallist! just got another World Championships medal! ...but "Roid Rage Rowbury is a doping cheater," said one poster, and that was the entire post. No reason, just damning accusation.
Followed closely by "The doping and cheating culture in Oregon goes back to Bowerman..." from another poster. Again, no evidence stated, just an accusation.
Then there are the posters who think it's funny to ask "Who?" as their post, implying that the athlete is question is a nobody.
How about Boris Berian, now a World Championship gold medallist! ...but with a thread about him devoted entirely to suspicion that he is dirty, complete with a poster dedicated to refuting any claims of Boris' innocence.
Like I said, your standards for what is valuable or trolling posts is arbitrary. Your subjective conclusion that fast are not an indicator of doping are your own standards, and not shared by everybody. It isn't some fringe perspective either, like a single poster replying with "everyone with well developed traps is doping". There is precedent, logic, and analysis going into those conversations. You just disagree with some starting assumptions, or the conclusions.
That's not a reason to ban a form of discussion.
You lump together (I'm assuming) my posts about Boris Berian and a single poster replying "Roid rage Rowbury". If you can't figure out the different qualities between these, and the different purposes of these posts, you certainly have no authority to decide what kind of conversation is okay for LRC.
So why do you think overzealous doping discussions, of any sort, are harmful? Why do you complain about the tone of the message board instead of engaging with the discussions going on? There are plenty of actual discussion if you took the time to differentiate them from "Roid Rage Rowbury" and the like. Get on the Paula thread and weigh in on what the known data shows. Get on the Boris thread and explain his transformation, or justify why the transformation can't be viewed with suspicion. Get on the Meldonium thread and talk about what constitutes a PED in the first place. Get on a Hebron KY thread and bitch about dopers doing dopey things. But whine to the owners because the conversations and posters aren't viewing things they way you are? Fine, take a walk.
OP makes a damn good point. The brojos & LRC obsession with doper allegations smacks of an immature attempt to deal with insecurity brought on by the realization that there are faster runners than you out there....many of them. Deal with it.
lets grow the sport wrote:
I agree with the OP. To grow the sport we have to be positive and supportive. Here are 10 rules we should always follow.
1) don't question the ethics of any fast runner
2) don't question the ethics of IAAF or of any other governing organization
3) in particular don't question the ethics of Sebastian Coe
4) don't question the ethics of any coach
5) in particular don't question the ethics of Alberto Salazar
6) don't question the ethics of any American runner, only America-haters do that
7) don't question the ethics of any non-American runner, only racists do that
8) don't question the ethics of any company
9) in particular don't question the ethics of Nike
10) don't question anyone associated with running, they're all GOOD people
one of the more retarded posts on LRC recently....which is really saying something..
People who post things like "guido chachne doped centro" and "punkassbitch doping cheater is a mini-brained moron" need to be banned. That's just racism and internet bullying.
People here will defend bullying by saying its freedom of speech to support their own cause until becomes their own problem.
And no it's not a single poster saying "Roid Rage Rowbury" its a term people use on here often to refer to her.
Your post about Berian was one that I respected because there was a balance between suspicion and belief and you were open to having your opinion changed. You are not most of letsrun. Its ok to have suspicion but baseless accusations are just bullying. In the end that post about Berian will become more of a doping accusations thread than an educated discussion.
I know controversy brings these guys traffic so that why I wont ask them to change, but I really do wish some IP addresses would be blocked from posting in the event that someone spews racist garbage.
ANTON CHIGURH wrote:
OP makes a damn good point. The brojos & LRC obsession with doper allegations smacks of an immature attempt to deal with insecurity brought on by the realization that there are faster runners than you out there....many of them. Deal with it.
And yet cheater after cheater are getting caught.
Let's be honest now, you're more of a mental case if you believe that most of your heroes are clean.
The tide has turned and you nutters can't quite bring yourself to accept the truth so you blame the people who have been telling you the truth for years.
Cheaters are getting caught and people keep saying "i told you so" but when accuse 90% of the athletes of cheating you are going to be correct from time to time.
A little moderation of the posts won't hurt.
Is anyone reporting posts?
But you have to see other places:
- runningworld: everyone loves everyone
- Reddit: if you say that polyester smells bad, you are busted :)
- facebook, Google+: everyone gives +1 or thumbs up. Not one cares or get in details.
Cyclingnews has a specific forum for doping talk, and they nuke any dope talk in the other forums. Easy and effective way to improve things forum-wide.
Interesting. I like that idea. But I think the brojo rebuttal would be that you can't raise awareness about doping if you relegate it to one specific section of the forum. Thoughts?
almost every pro athlete in track is doping.
eotbs wrote:
Dear LetsRun,
This forum stopped being fun, because of the haters.
Almost every athlete is accused of doping, and done so by so very many posters.
Shannon Rowbury, an Olympian! a World Championships medallist! just got another World Championships medal! ...but "Roid Rage Rowbury is a doping cheater," said one poster, and that was the entire post. No reason, just damning accusation.
Followed closely by "The doping and cheating culture in Oregon goes back to Bowerman..." from another poster. Again, no evidence stated, just an accusation.
Then there are the posters who think it's funny to ask "Who?" as their post, implying that the athlete is question is a nobody.
How about Boris Berian, now a World Championship gold medallist! ...but with a thread about him devoted entirely to suspicion that he is dirty, complete with a poster dedicated to refuting any claims of Boris' innocence.
Shannon and Boris are just 2 examples of athletes with an anti-following of haters, but it goes beyond them.
Why is it so hard to be happy that an American medalled or won? At least wait until there is a positive test before accusing someone of cheating. Seriously, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Before this year's Worlds, there was the "Most outrageous doper who got away with it" thread. Nothing more than a chance for everyone to name the best athlete they can think of. Not the best athlete who doped, but just the best athlete, with automatic implication that with great results there was great doping.
There are some posters who want to cheer for athletes, but surrounding every good post there seems to be two bad posts. The worst are threads started just to accuse, and nothing more. Threads like "Ed Ches dope?" No reason other than that he is fast.
It's not fun. It's not growing the sport. Everyone on this site needs to look in the mirror everytime they think of posting, and ask themselves, "Will I do more to hurt the sport or to promote the sport with that post?"
If you actually have evidence of a positive test, let's hear about it. If you have seen doping happen, then be as bold as Steve Magness or Kara Goucher and tell us about it WHILE TELLING US YOUR NAME. Otherwise keep your doping accusations to yourself.
I also call upon the site moderators to start removing these baselessly accusational posts and threads.
There are so many people in my life who I am trying to get interested in the sport of track & field. Even though I come to this site every day, I have shown almost none of them this site, because I'm embarrassed to be a fan of the same sport as the 'fans' who make the un-ending doping allegation posts.
I agree wholeheartedly with you and have made similar statements on several occasions. Sometimes there are enough dots to connect to be suspicious, but in some cases, like Shannon and Boris, accusations come seemingly out of no where. It is sad really because as an athlete it would bother me if some is accusing me something I know I would never do. - What interesting is, the accusations usually come from anonymous posters using temporary names, who are usually childish in the manner of their posts.
eotbs wrote:
Dear LetsRun,
This forum stopped being fun, because of the haters.
Almost every athlete is accused of doping, and done so by so very many posters.
Shannon Rowbury, an Olympian! a World Championships medallist! just got another World Championships medal! ...but "Roid Rage Rowbury is a doping cheater," said one poster, and that was the entire post. No reason, just damning accusation.
Followed closely by "The doping and cheating culture in Oregon goes back to Bowerman..." from another poster. Again, no evidence stated, just an accusation.
Then there are the posters who think it's funny to ask "Who?" as their post, implying that the athlete is question is a nobody.
How about Boris Berian, now a World Championship gold medallist! ...but with a thread about him devoted entirely to suspicion that he is dirty, complete with a poster dedicated to refuting any claims of Boris' innocence.
Shannon and Boris are just 2 examples of athletes with an anti-following of haters, but it goes beyond them.
Why is it so hard to be happy that an American medalled or won? At least wait until there is a positive test before accusing someone of cheating. Seriously, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Before this year's Worlds, there was the "Most outrageous doper who got away with it" thread. Nothing more than a chance for everyone to name the best athlete they can think of. Not the best athlete who doped, but just the best athlete, with automatic implication that with great results there was great doping.
There are some posters who want to cheer for athletes, but surrounding every good post there seems to be two bad posts. The worst are threads started just to accuse, and nothing more. Threads like "Ed Ches dope?" No reason other than that he is fast.
It's not fun. It's not growing the sport. Everyone on this site needs to look in the mirror everytime they think of posting, and ask themselves, "Will I do more to hurt the sport or to promote the sport with that post?"
If you actually have evidence of a positive test, let's hear about it. If you have seen doping happen, then be as bold as Steve Magness or Kara Goucher and tell us about it WHILE TELLING US YOUR NAME. Otherwise keep your doping accusations to yourself.
I also call upon the site moderators to start removing these baselessly accusational posts and threads.
There are so many people in my life who I am trying to get interested in the sport of track & field. Even though I come to this site every day, I have shown almost none of them this site, because I'm embarrassed to be a fan of the same sport as the 'fans' who make the un-ending doping allegation posts.
We all know it's a massive wind up, piss take here. I actually find it very amusing and shows there's a lot of humour in what is otherwise a pretty repetitive, dull sport. In a way, it motivates me.
Plus, it's easy to spot bs posts / threads from real ones.
This forum is fun - it's like a rolling soap opera. It's a brilliant idea that keeps people waiting for the next running shoe to drop.
You mentioned innocent until proven guilty. Yes! That is what we are waiting for - the innocent will screw up and test positive. Until they test positive it's like who is banging who and who is the father or drug provider.
In this soap opera, they talk about who is fat and who is anorexic. Poor girls.
Guys who can't get dates are slammed and counseled.
Every once in a while there is the thrill of victory and the agony of the feet.
Let's not ruin the unfolding soap opera that this forum is. It's also a way for the average runner to ding a champion or make a cheater wish they never entered a 5K.
Enjoy the drama. It's lighter than politics or religion or climate change these days.
Well Actually wrote:
Without fans and money nobody will really care. Even those who like to think of themselves as "above" the need for such attention and rewards are not. NOBODY would train like some folks do today to run a marathon in 2:03 or an 800 in 1:41. NOBODY. Not one person on earth would do that.
So what? I'd rather see a clean runner winning in 2:10 than a drug cheat winning in 2:03. Running used to be pure when every runner was an amateur. It was all about hard work, not gadgets and gimmicks. People ran for the love of the sport. Prize money and shoe sponsorships destroyed the purity of this sport. If all this drug talk takes the entertainment element away from running, that's better for the sport.
The LRC forums are toxic as hell, nothing new about that.
eotbs wrote:
Dear LetsRun,
This forum stopped being fun, because of the haters.
Almost every athlete is accused of doping, and done so by so very many posters.
---
There are so many people in my life who I am trying to get interested in the sport of track & field. Even though I come to this site every day, I have shown almost none of them this site, because I'm embarrassed to be a fan of the same sport as the 'fans' who make the un-ending doping allegation posts.
"Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman." - Justice Louis D. Brandeis
I empathize with your point of view, lamenting the continual talk of doping in the sport of track and field. Like me, you seem to care about the sport a great deal, about its perception, and about its continued relevance, health and growth.
But unlike you - I think a very different tack is necessary to restore the sport. As the initial quotation suggests, I think the solution is in talking about what ails the sport - until it gets fixed. Ignoring the filth that continually sickens the sport is only asking to be re-infected again and again, and to never be fully healed. So disinfect and medicate. Talk about it. Talk about it some more. It's "ugly" medicine - bitter to the taste, with unpleasant side-effects. But it works.
Just consider how sick the sport is:
-- Doctors, coaches and athletes are all being sanctioned for doping - serious enough violations to receive lifetime bans;
-- Officials within governing and testing agencies - the ones who are supposed to be keeping the sport clean - have fallen under serious scrutiny
-- Record books are being grotesquely distorted - cheating future generations of the opportunity to even dream about making a clean and legitimate impact in the sport.
This is real - and forms the backdrop against which even the most base doping posts are written. Fans are hurt/fatigued/jaded - take your pick - just tired of what's happening to their sport. I empathize with your position - but this doping thing has gone on for decades now and has risen to farcical levels - given the things we're now asked to believe. Too many things just don't pass the look test because we can't "un-know" what we do about what's happening out there.
Think about this: An entire generation has been raised on this doping saga and believes this is what track and field is - a game of guess who the dirty ones are - because there always is one.
I'm just not seeing a path to getting this fixed without talking about it. Yeah, part of that is going to be some talk that's just expressed in a base way. Ugly medicine. But attempting to bring new fans to the sport as you want to see it - not as it actually is - is a recipe for failure. Eventually they will see it for what it is - and they'll become conflicted. They'll have to ask if it's worth their investment of time and money - have to ask if they can trust the results.
It's the giant "dirty bomb" that can destroy any professional sport - lack of confidence in the integrity of the play on the field.
You have to get the grime out, get this thing disinfected. Get the cheaters out, get the PEDs out - and make it a product that new fans and runners can fully embrace. Because when you have physiologists, kinesiologists - and even an astrophysicist -- running to crunch numbers to question and re-examine predictive models of expected human limits because of marked outlier status, you better know and understand what's propelling this in your sport - since they're on to this, and they will make determinations.
The media will continue to talk about this - and that's a good. And as far as I'm concerned, the more disinfectant, the better. I want this talked about in forums. I don't want coaches, runners, doctors, officials to be comfortable with what they're up to. Let's get this fixed!
Greasy_Effin_Skid_Bahd wrote:
The LRC forums are toxic as hell, nothing new about that.
Moderators are on a deleting rampage now.
"AW was rife with dopers; Slaney got busted and it killed Drenth."
I knew Jeff Drenth. I know his (then) coach Bob Sevene. Jeff is one of the last people I would suspect of drug use. Of course it is possible but I doubt it Very much. He had a good career going, he had a crush on a girl in AW who had a crush on him and she was anti drug use. He wouldn't destroy that possibility with PED use. Sev would never work with him, or anyone else, if he Or they were) was using drugs.
I am tired of reading Jeff died of drug use. Like Andy Palmer (2:15 marathon), Travis Landreth (World Cross Jr. team) and writer Jim Fixx they all died of congenital undiagnosed heart issues.