Malmo,
That lists looks good. Brings back some memories! I actually misread how the results were posted.
The only one I could see that wasnt on there in 1979 was Jeff Vandereems 9:02.40 (ran it at the So. Cal Master's Meet-(Jr.)
Good Work!
OldSchooler
how many of these guys did nothing in college and beyond...
If I could get a color coded version emailed to me that would be great. Thanks.
Please mail me one. Interesting stuff. I think that the internet theory must be asserted in light of the rising stars of the late 90's. In other words, Ritz and Webb became stars largely because of the internet (and of course their running backed it up). It was a great coincidence really. But right as the medium exploded, two of the best high school runners in history were there to shine in the limelight.
malmo wrote:
1980: The first cracks begin to show. Depth in the 2 mile falls off. In 1982 depth in the mile fails, starting a 17 year downward trend.
.
This may be just coincidence but:
1979 (fall before the 1980 track season): First year of the Kinney/Footlocker national XC meet.
Usher wrote:
1979 (fall before the 1980 track season): First year of the Kinney/Footlocker national XC meet.
I've got a better idea. Wasn't it about that time that high schools went "metric" with the asinine 1600/3200 distances? That meant the bar was shifted and the psychology of what was consider good changed the perspective for a whole generation of kids. Only in the lae 80s with the introduction of National Championships at the imperial distances of mile/ 2 mile did that change. You can see kids today "converting" their 3200 times to 2 mile to see how they measure up. In the 80s and 90s they never did that.
Sad thing is... wrote:
how many of these guys did nothing in college and beyond...
how many of these guys still dominate the US all-time lists.
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/lists/all_time/us_at_m.htmlThis
Sad thing is... wrote:
how many of these guys did nothing in college and beyond...
This statement is greatly exaggerrated.
Most of these guys became huge contributers for top college programs. Most earned All-American status at least once, won major conference titles, qualified for NCAA's in track, etc. Things that the vast majority of college runners never achieve. Explain to me what you mean by "They did nothing in college and beyond".
Maybe I'm a little sensitive to those sorts of statements but that might be because I was one of those yearly top performers who went on to win 5 conference titles, 5 All-American awards, rank in the top 10 for my event in the U.S., and run in two Olympic Trials finals, yet I most likely would get lumped in the "did nothing beyond high school category" because I happened to be number one for one year in high school, yet never matched that status as a collegiate, or post-collegiate.
It might be more accurate to say "what is surprising is how many guys on those lists did not continue a solid line of improvement beyond high school." Most of them did do something. For one, they worked harder in high school than most and gave themselves the opportunity to compete for top-notch collegiate programs.
Lets look at some of the slowest years, they were saving themselves for college, right? Do you recognize any of their names?
Top 2 milers
1988, Ernie Shepard, Cajh Hafferty, Reggie Williams, Ian Alsen, Scott Hempel, Brian Grosso, Pat McDonough, David Scudamore, Chris Lewis, Eddie LaValle
1989, Chris Lewis, Brian Grosso, David Welsh, Bryan Dameworth, Stuart Burnham, Todd Orvis, Mike Mykytok, Mike Williamson, John Coyle, Jim Rodriguez, MArtin Morales, Abe, Valdez, Michael Cox, Kevin Berkowitz
shots wrote:
I was one of those yearly top performers who went on to win 5 conference titles, 5 All-American awards, rank in the top 10 for my event in the U.S., and run in two Olympic Trials finals,
Who could this be?
Absolutley.
David Scudamore won the Pittsburgh Marathon once in 2:15
Mike Myktok was a top U.S. road racer and won the U.S. 10,000 meter championships on the track, I believe in 1997.
Brian Grosso was an NCAA individual qualifier at least once in cross country.
Chris Lewis was an NCAA qualifier indoors in the 3000 in 1990.
David Welsh I'm pretty certain ran on at least one of Arkansas NCAA Champion cross county teams
Bryan Dameworth had numerous injuries but (although this one I'm not certain) made Wisconsin's varsity at least once when they were a top five finishing team at NCAA's.
As far as the rest of them, you're right, I don't recall right off teh top of my head. I'd have to do some research to find out what they ended up doing.
In other words only one of them ever did anything (Mike Mykytok) and he was a one hit wonder. Thanks for proving my point.
Whoops, I"m an idiot. I get your point.
The slow years did not, contrary to popular opinion, produce the future top performers. You're right on the money,
Sorry about that.
Another thing that's interesting is the depth for great U.S. distance running, especially the maratho, peaked in 1982-1983. The peak depth in high school distance running peaked 5 to 7 years before then.
shots wrote:
Another thing that's interesting is the depth for great U.S. distance running, especially the marathon, peaked in 1982-1983. The peak depth in high school distance running peaked 5 to 7 years before then.
BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!
Exactly. There's the causal link. You should also be aware that those (70s peak) were the same runners who were most likely to train like Ken Cormier when they were in high school, and even if they didn't, they wouldn't have thought Cormier's training was "too much."
Ironically those that end up burning out are more likely to be those who didn't run very much in high school, "saving it for later."
jdscranton wrote:
Please mail me one. Interesting stuff. I think that the internet theory must be asserted in light of the rising stars of the late 90's. In other words, Ritz and Webb became stars largely because of the internet (and of course their running backed it up). It was a great coincidence really. But right as the medium exploded, two of the best high school runners in history were there to shine in the limelight.
Good points.
The sudden reversal in the trend was in 1999 - I emphasize "sudden" and "dramatic" because it wasn't just any ordinary change in the trend, it came following the three worst performing years in history. 1999 was really the Sanchez/Powell show, with Ritz/Webb being footnotes.
1999:
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/lists/lists1999/prepoutm.htmlwow wrote:Wow.. In 2003 as a senior in high school, I was one out of 170 milers in the United States. Definetly humbling.Dude, you're looking at this all wrong. Take a look around you, do you think anyone in your town is one of the top 170 fishermen in the country? Do you think that any one of the top 170 couch potatoes lives in your neighborhood? They don't. You rare, you're elite, and there's 169 sonabitches in front of you who'd better look out! Badass comin' through!
many did race well in college and beyond BUT arguably more did not. Maybe just the result of what happens within a general population (survival of the fittest)? Congratulations to those who continued on to be conference champs, all Americans, world listers and Olympians. Unfortunately, based on the pure number of people, I think more should have gone on to loftier achievements in the sport...
Malmo,
Great job, could you send the color coded list to me? Thanks.
P
Absolutely... wrote:
many did race well in college and beyond BUT arguably more did not. Maybe just the result of what happens within a general population (survival of the fittest)? Congratulations to those who continued on to be conference champs, all Americans, world listers and Olympians. Unfortunately, based on the pure number of people, I think more should have gone on to loftier achievements in the sport...
Are you suggesting that just because some kids were the best in the country in their youth that they "should" be the best as adults? I, and hundreds like me, reject this notion. It's like saying my team should have won the game because they led after the first quarter.
No doubt that some of the top kids do not pursue running after high school and beyond the way they did in their youth. But you know what, for every one of them there are dozens more who weren't even in the top 100 in the country as high schoolers, who had the potential to do great things (even more so than those few HS studs), yet they never gave it a chance.
In my day, the best high school runner I've ever seen was George Brooks. He went to my high school. We had to drive to his house to pick him up and make sure he'd show up for practice, and we failed at that. There are dozens of George Brookses out there, I'm sure of it.
Absolutely... wrote:
many did race well in college and beyond BUT arguably more did not. Maybe just the result of what happens within a general population (survival of the fittest)? Congratulations to those who continued on to be conference champs, all Americans, world listers and Olympians. Unfortunately, based on the pure number of people, I think more should have gone on to loftier achievements in the sport...
Based on what?