Herb Elliott is the GOAT over 1500m/mile, someone prove me wrong.
Herb Elliott is the GOAT over 1500m/mile, someone prove me wrong.
Spider wrote:
But seriously, both Snell and Elliot are two of my favorite athletes to watch when/if ever I can see old film on them. They're simply marvelous runners. But in Elliot's defense, Snell never did come close to Elliot's 1500m WR (3:35.6), which was roughly the equivalent of a 3:52 mile; that had to wait for Ryun to demolish. But both of them were among the best racers ever, back in the dark ages when people had to run on cinders and the whole sport had no money in it at all. The one advantage of the professional era is that I suspect that with money around, Elliot would've met Snell in the '64 Olympic 1500m final (and probably wouldn't have left the race for a last minute kick, either); conceivably, both might have still run through '68 to meet Ryun and Keino (just like El-G ran in '96, '00, '04).
Also, I believe Elliot and Bayi are the only two athletes in the sub-4 era to set a 1500m WR in a major championship final (though Keino's 3:34.9 at altitude probably should count too).
It's crazy (and sad) to think of the incredible matchups we might have had in the history of track if it hadn't been the norm for athletes to retire and pursue their non-athletic careers by 25.
Bannister could actually have raced Elliott while still being close to his athletic prime. He was still only 31 in 1960. Elliott was still only 29 when Ryun broke his WR. Snell himself says he would have gone on to the Mexico Olympics (where he would still only be 29) if he had been able to financially, and believes he would have won (although he admitted that the 1500m would have been difficult at altitude). We really could have had Elliott vs Snell vs Ryun vs Kenio in 68.
Guys like Elliott might have retired because of 'lack of motivation' and such to continue the hard training, but I'm sure if they were earning Mo Farah money (and maybe sports medicine was as advanced as today) they would have gone on well into their 30s, close to the top of their game.
Elliott ran 3:35 in an Olympic final at barely 22 years of age and then retired the next year. 1500m runners nearly always reach their peak at around 25 or 26, so he almost certainly would have gone quite a bit faster.
If you put him in a time machine in 1961 and brought him to today, gave him a million pound sponsorship to train for 2020, the only guy who could possibly beat him would be Jakob. Sub 3:29 for both.
It's funny how a continent with a total population of the time of around 12 million could produce an 800m runner (Snell) who likely could run at least 1:42 today, and a 1500m runner (Elliott) who certainly had the athletic ability to run sub 3:30 today, both almost certainly clean, and definitely decades before EPO. Yet it's certainly in question now whether East Africa (Ethiopia and Kenya) with a combined population of 150 million can do either of those things drug free, and if they can, only very rare outliers such as Rudisha and..well, who knows in the 1500m?
Jake1500 wrote:
"But Cerruty coached both Landy and Elliot, which is quite a resume. I would like to get ahold of one of his books one of these days (alibris et al occasionally has one for $100+, which is a bit much)."
I just read Percy Cerutty's Autobiography "Why Die?" it was so awesome. everytime i read a bit i just wanted to go for a crazy hard run. it was only about $25 Australian. (Best $25 ive ever spent)[quote]Spider wrote:
I just searched for why die and its over $80 in the us (about 112 australian), but 4 cerutty authored titles are on amazon for 20-25$ us.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=percy+ceruttyScrotevette wrote:
It's funny how a continent with a total population of the time of around 12 million could produce an 800m runner (Snell) who likely could run at least 1:42 today, and a 1500m runner (Elliott) who certainly had the athletic ability to run sub 3:30 today, both almost certainly clean, and definitely decades before EPO. Yet it's certainly in question now whether East Africa (Ethiopia and Kenya) with a combined population of 150 million can do either of those things drug free, and if they can, only very rare outliers such as Rudisha and..well, who knows in the 1500m?
Might have something to do with all the doping found to be going on there?
Coevett wrote:
Spider wrote:
But seriously, both Snell and Elliot are two of my favorite athletes to watch when/if ever I can see old film on them. They're simply marvelous runners. But in Elliot's defense, Snell never did come close to Elliot's 1500m WR (3:35.6), which was roughly the equivalent of a 3:52 mile; that had to wait for Ryun to demolish. But both of them were among the best racers ever, back in the dark ages when people had to run on cinders and the whole sport had no money in it at all. The one advantage of the professional era is that I suspect that with money around, Elliot would've met Snell in the '64 Olympic 1500m final (and probably wouldn't have left the race for a last minute kick, either); conceivably, both might have still run through '68 to meet Ryun and Keino (just like El-G ran in '96, '00, '04).
Also, I believe Elliot and Bayi are the only two athletes in the sub-4 era to set a 1500m WR in a major championship final (though Keino's 3:34.9 at altitude probably should count too).
It's crazy (and sad) to think of the incredible matchups we might have had in the history of track if it hadn't been the norm for athletes to retire and pursue their non-athletic careers by 25.
Bannister could actually have raced Elliott while still being close to his athletic prime. He was still only 31 in 1960. Elliott was still only 29 when Ryun broke his WR. Snell himself says he would have gone on to the Mexico Olympics (where he would still only be 29) if he had been able to financially, and believes he would have won (although he admitted that the 1500m would have been difficult at altitude). We really could have had Elliott vs Snell vs Ryun vs Kenio in 68.
Guys like Elliott might have retired because of 'lack of motivation' and such to continue the hard training, but I'm sure if they were earning Mo Farah money (and maybe sports medicine was as advanced as today) they would have gone on well into their 30s, close to the top of their game.
Thinking of possible career overlaps that could have happened but did not is always fun. It is interesting that back in the day Africans were the more likely to have extended careers. Wolde competed from '56 -72. Gammoudi from '64-72 and Yifter of course from '72-80.
Jozef Plachy did make the 800 final in '68 and the 1500 final in '80 though.
As for longevity in the amateur days, remember Dellinger made 3 Olympic teams and Young 4, each winning a bronze. Ryun made 3 as well but, alas, no medals.
limping along wrote:
Elliott also has the distinction of writing (with help from Trengove) what is arguably the best book by a runner, "The Golden Mile." Unfortunately it's hard to find.
It is available on Kindle:
https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Mile-Elliotts-biography-Trengove-ebook/dp/B07CT96NXV/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1540346428&sr=1-5&keywords=golden+mile&dpID=51FIWsyoEIL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srchThe dead trees format will cost you some serious coin for a book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000CL0N8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0000CL0N8&linkCode=am2&tag=booksprice-20&condition=usedArmstronglivs wrote:
St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:
It is available on Kindle:
https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Mile-Elliotts-biography-Trengove-ebook/dp/B07CT96NXV/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1540346428&sr=1-5&keywords=golden+mile&dpID=51FIWsyoEIL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srchThe dead trees format will cost you some serious coin for a book:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000CL0N8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0000CL0N8&linkCode=am2&tag=booksprice-20&condition=usedNo Bugles, No Drums - Snell's autobiography, assisted by Garth Gilmour, is also an excellent book. Both efforts give real insight into the mind of a champion.
If I can remember Snell would do 20x400m on the side of the road, I think he had a stress fracture at one stage in his career, not surprisingly (either 1963 or 1965), and the media said he was finished because he could only manage 3:55 on chewed up cinders with a fairly sizeable crack. The man was a tank.
Snell ran a mile in 3:54 on grass. I seriously wonder if anyone could do that today even with all of the
advantages we have now.
Yeah my understanding is that herb was beaten over the mile at school by a lad around three years older than he when he was 14.
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