Foot Locker admits to adding 70 meters to South Regional course

d2xccoach,

Thanks for your comments. I am not a course measurer but I do have some interest in the technical process, so it is interesting to have input from somebody active in the field.

I based my earlier comments on some discussion I read over at measure.infopop.cc, which indicated that some people were willing to sign off on off-road course if they could be measured and land marked accurately. That was somewhat controversial and I did not see it reference XC courses, more trail or path races.

I actually agree that on most courses the biggest issue is that there are not permanent markers, so even if you can measure it accurately, there is no way to set it up so it is reproducible at that distance. I've been to McAlpine, but it was a while ago, so I don't remember if that would apply there. But on something like Balboa, with the turns just out in the open on a path, there is no way that could be set up to specs every time.

DiscoGary wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Well, I don't think a surveyor's wheel is an approved measuring device for any course. So, even if you can use it accurately, it wouldn't get you any farther down the road of getting a certification. I haven't seen anything that leads me to conclude that a surveyor's wheel is more accurate than a Jones counter.

If you are arguing that it is accurate enough and we should not worry about certification for XC courses, then I agree with you.

The evidence we gathered showed that the least accurate way to measure a grass course was the surveyor's wheel. If calibrated, it will give you a good enough approximation, but it will not be good enough for certification.

That may be true, but I suspect the terrain and hills, etc. may change that on some courses. For instance I can't see a Jones counter being very accurate going up steep hills. Different terrain (not all grass) may also effect that.

I agree with you that the steel tape is likely the best choice.

What are your thoughts on documenting the set up so it can re accurately reproduced?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

... But on something like Balboa, with the turns just out in the open on a path, there is no way that could be set up to specs every time.

On the Illinois HS State XC course the open turns are marked permanently in the ground with small flag holders embedded in concrete... so it CAN be done, but the course managers have to be very motivated.

The on-course ratings guys recommend burying a metal tape around the turns which can be found with a metal detector. This avoids the problem of the flag holders getting knocked off by lawn mowing equipment.

It's actually not that hard to create, measure, and maintain a XC course to a high degree of accuracy, you just have to have people in charge who think it's important.

So...any thoughts on how to stretch a steel tape down in the dips at the bottom of hills, or how to stretch a 50m steel tape around twisting trails?

Isn't the jones counter a clicker on a bike wheel (one click per wheel revolution)? Don't most quality surveyor's wheels have continuous driven gears? How do you ride a bike within 30cm on an inside turn if there is fencing, trees, etc.??

Mr. Obvious wrote:

...

What are your thoughts on documenting the set up so it can re accurately reproduced?

I addressed that a little already but here's how the Illinois course is setup.

1. The starting line is marked by three permanent plaques (metal 6" diameter) embedded in cement. One on each end, and one in the middle of the starting "curve".

2. There are plaques in the ground at every 1/2 mile.

3. The finish line is marked with a plaque on each side of it.

4. Most turns are defined by trees.

5. The open turns are marked by flag holders embedded in cement. Flags are mounted on these when the course is setup.

Set this up and measure with a tape and that would be good enough for most people I think. You just have to make sure the landscapers don't take out a tree.

thanks Discogary,

Those steps on making a course repeatable make sense. I think they may be impracticable on most courses. In addition to dedicated course management folks you either need a course that is a dedicated XC course or onee that has other uses which are not incompatible with the permanent markers. Since most XC course are multipurpose and not under the control of the XC folks, I think that is a tall ask.

Very interesting conversation and I appreciate your contributions.

Hill master wrote:

Isn't the jones counter a clicker on a bike wheel (one click per wheel revolution)?

The Jones Counter records 20 counts for each wheel revolution, about 4 inches per count.

Don't most quality surveyor's wheels have continuous driven gears? How do you ride a bike within 30cm on an inside turn if there is fencing, trees, etc.??

Very, very carefully.

Jones Counter details

http://www.jonescounter.com/2.html

J.R. wrote:

Hill master wrote:

Isn't the jones counter a clicker on a bike wheel (one click per wheel revolution)?

The Jones Counter records 20 counts for each wheel revolution, about 4 inches per count.

Don't most quality surveyor's wheels have continuous driven gears? How do you ride a bike within 30cm on an inside turn if there is fencing, trees, etc.??

Very, very carefully.

Wouldn't the number of counts very depending on the wheel size of the bike?

Hill master wrote:...Wouldn't the number of counts vary depending on the wheel size of the bike?

Yes, it does vary based on the size of the wheel, as well as the tire pressure on any given day. When I measure I always pump my tires up to the recommended pressure on the sidewall, however there is no way to get the exact same amount of pressure. For kicks, I just went back and looked at my measurement spreadsheets for a bunch of races that I've measured the last 5 years. All these were done with the same bike, a mid 1990's Specialized Stumpjumper mountain bike with a non-shock front fork and 26" rims, wheel notations included below so you can see how things change. Oh, and I used the same Jones Counter for all these measurements.

--April 2010: 19426 counts/mile (original Specialized Z21 rims with mntn bike tires)

--April 2011: 19427 counts/mile (same rim/tire combo as 4/2010)

--May 2011: 19285 counts/mile (same rim as above, switched to slick tires)

--March 2012: 19272 counts/mile (Mavic CrossRide rims, same slick tires as above)

--October 2012: 19339 counts/mile (same rim/tire combo as 3/2012)

--August 2014: 19296 counts/mile (same rim/tire combo as 3/2012)

--November 2015: 19262 counts/mile (same rim/tire combo as 8/2014)

The counts/mile numbers above are my Working Constant numbers, which isn all cases were derived from my pre-measurement calibration rides. My post-measurement calibration rides were always a few less counts/mile due to the tires warming up during the measuring work.

If I were to switch to using a road bike with 700c wheels, I would assume my counts/mile would decrease fairly significantly. The smaller the wheel, the more counts/mile.

I thought Footlocker Regionals were *races*, in which the top N places qualify for nationals.

Are you saying that the extra 70 meters would have affected the placing order over 3+ miles? That's remarkable. I hadn't realized that high school students track the distance they've run so precisely that they ignore course landmark and finish line banners when timing their final kicks.

well........ wrote:

I thought Footlocker Regionals were *races*, in which the top N places qualify for nationals.

Are you saying that the extra 70 meters would have affected the placing order over 3+ miles? That's remarkable. I hadn't realized that high school students track the distance they've run so precisely that they ignore course landmark and finish line banners when timing their final kicks.

What are you talking about? That's not at all what he's saying. He's saying the course was 70 meters long, which means that the runners would run however much slower an extra 70 meters is at the same pace, not that it affected places whatsoever.

DiscoGary wrote:...The on-course ratings guys recommend burying a metal tape around the turns which can be found with a metal detector. This avoids the problem of the flag holders getting knocked off by lawn mowing equipment.

It's actually not that hard to create, measure, and maintain a XC course to a high degree of accuracy, you just have to have people in charge who think it's important.

It avoids the problem of flag holders getting knocked off by lawn mowing equipment, but it creates the problem that now I have to add a metal detector to my course setup kit. I don't think the average person has one of those lying around.

I wouldn't exactly agree with you that it's "not that hard" to take care of business the way you propose. It is certainly a lot easier to wheel out an XC course to a reasonable level of accuracy (+/- 5m over 5k) in an hour or so (less time if you have sections that repeat) than to spend a lot of extra time to dial in that exact +/- 5m. Is the extra time/effort worth it for XC? Perhaps it is for some people, and I totally respect those who feel that way. As for maintaining an XC course, it's not so much a matter of having people in charge who think it's important, it's also a matter of physical changes that happen to that venue, and having the same people do the setup time after time. In the 15 years I've been coaching at the same college, our course has changed at least 7 times due to campus construction as well as due to our conference going to 6k for the women's distance. And I know that after I'm through coaching even if the school continues to use the current course we've designed it's likely that a new coach won't set up the turns exactly where I do, even though my course notes document gives good landmarks for all the turns.

That Illinois HS State course at Detweiller Park, that is a special place for this sport! The fact that the course has been stable for so long without development encroaching is amazing - and the documentation that has been done to try to note the changes over the years is something i wish existed for more courses. Their ability to use permanent marks in the ground for their turn posts sets a very high standard for other courses to try to achieve. Reality is that Detweiller Park is the exception when it comes to building courses, in a good way!

Do you have the old version of the Jones Counter, or the new version?

I've seen XC measurements done with temperature tested cable or chain. Both do corners better than tape. All three are temperature sensitive (Measurement guidelines recommend not using steel tape under 60 degrees unless you compensate).

As DiscoGary notes the REALLY tough part is marking so you can reproduce the measured course on race day. It takes extraordinary effort to get that done right (and find all the markers later).

That said, 100 meter cable properly tensioned can measure an XC course fairly fast with a team of 3, two to manage each end of the cable and a third to work the middle and drive in the necessary marking stakes. As noted in other comments on an XC course even if you put down surveyors markers you'll likely need a metal detector to find them.

You can also measure very accurately with electronic surveying equipment (and a team of two) but on a curvy course that can take forever due to the huge number of measuring segments.

If I had unlimited money I'd use all three, measure the start, finish and other significant straights with the electronic equipment and due the remainder with cable, add everything up and adjust the start and/or finish with steel tape. The advantage of having documented segments instead of an entire course is when you have to change it. In MacAlpine where they did some work you could remeasure the changed segments, use the existing measurement for the remaining segments, and redo the post-measurement adjustments.

As a note, it costs money but putting down a calibration course with surveying equipment is really cool, and dead on accurate.

What type of cable or chain have you seen used? Where can you purchase these items?

I built a cc course in a public park years ago and placed PVC pipe in the ground everywhere a flag was to be placed (dropped in), and at all other important points. I glued a penny to a PVC pipe cap and placed those caps over the embedded pipe and went back with a metal detector, and for awhile was able to locate the caps/embedded pipes. Eventually, I came to realize that others were finding my pennies and digging them out while metal detecting! So it's a great idea on private land, but not the answer on high traffic public land areas. In the woods, on the trails, the pennies remain. Using weed eater line and making a small loop with the line makes it easy to pull off the buried caps with a little less digging.

Since I didn't purchase the cable myself I presumed it came from a surveying equipment shop. It looked very much like this:

http://www.tigersupplies.com/Products/Keson-300-Foot-Surveyors-Rope__KESONSR18300.aspx

Although it was not "lightweight" like kevlar or fiberglass it wasn't bad (but it didn't go in a little loop like the picture, it was about 3 feet rolled up). I heard it termed "aircraft cable". The chain I've heard of on the RRTC forum but not seen personally, David Katz may know. You stretched the cable with the tensioner and validated pre-marked segments with steel tape before you started. The tensioner was nice with a rubber flare that made it easy to use, but I don't think it was much more sophisticated than the fishing scale I use with steel tape.

As an FYI I've found stores that sell surveying equipment a real boon for finding stuff to mark and measure with. I got my walking wheel at one, and they had florescent duct tape (great when measuring road courses) long before I saw it in hardware stores. Plus they carry all manner of things you can pound into roads, dirt, etc, to make more permanent markers.

Isn't that just a steel tape?

FL baloney wrote:

it was still a certified 5k course

Wrong. Cross country courses CAN NOT BE USATF CERTIFIED or MEASUREMENT CERTIFIED IN ANY OTHER LEGITIMATE WAY.

USATF Certification is for road courses only. As the method of measurement has only proven to be accurate and reliable for roads.

Best you can do for XC is measure with a wheel. It's margin of error is greater than a USATF measurement, but it is "good enough." It's not certified by anyone though.

Shesh.