hansons 2x6, 2 weeks before marathon

[quote]S. Canaday wrote:

I will also point out that last time we raced (LA Marathon this year) I finished several minutes ahead of him.

Sage,

That is a low blow and only a half truth. Luke retired from competitive racing a couple years back. He is a full time coach and is currently just a fitness runner. During his competitive career he ran faster than you for a marathon and a half marathon. He also already has his OT qualifier because that was something he was able to achieve during his retirement. Move on.

Man this is a great thread, can we leave your negativity and personal stuff out of it? what is your issue? You sound super jaded! Did Sage outkick you in a race or something? It seems pretty obvious you are just posting under different names. For me the discussion/dialogue between Sage and Muffy is a serious highlight of the thread.Alan- thanks for that great post too. I know that I tend to look to much at the micro scheme of training and need to do better at working towards a long term approach

Struggling for recognition wrote:

[quote]S. Canaday wrote:

I will also point out that last time we raced (LA Marathon this year) I finished several minutes ahead of him.

Sage,

That is a low blow and only a half truth. Luke retired from competitive racing a couple years back. He is a full time coach and is currently just a fitness runner. During his competitive career he ran faster than you for a marathon and a half marathon. He also already has his OT qualifier because that was something he was able to achieve during his retirement. Move on.

This has turned out to be a good training thread.

I honestly did not know Luke retired from competitive running. I'm sure he's been very busy with coaching (and from what I gather) has a little kid or two...so yes, that would make it harder.

Back to the point of the thread:

I think Alan brought up the really great point (which for some may be common sense, but it's worth repeating): The whole training plan over months and years is what one needs to examine instead of just any given workout.

It's the body of work. Every time you toe the line in the marathon is a reflection of how many miles you've run in your life.

As far as improving in marathons go....almost everybody has enough "speed." It's almost always a matter of strength/endurance. That comes from consistent mileage and that comes from a well trained Lactate Threshold.

Since Vo2max is probably not improving much past one's early 20s, it's a matter of improving Running Economy as we age (which can very well be done in the 30s and 40s even) and velocity at Lactate Threshold intensity (read: 85% to 88% of max HR or effort).

I don't think there is really any given single workout that is a "make or break" marathon workout, but if I had to pick a type of workout that usually reflects the specifics of the marathon demands, then it would be the Long Runs. Have a variety of negative split long runs in a distance range of 18 to 22-23 miles (depending on weekly mileage a bit) that progress to marathon race pace or faster (at times). Be able to change gears and speed up off a high end aerobic pace at the end of these.

Of course being able to be consistent at holding those high volume, moderate intensity workouts it helps to have a well trained Lactate Threshold starting from workouts as short as 20-minute Tempo Runs at Half Marathon to 15km race pace.

[quote]first time bostoner wrote:

Wow, best thread I've read in a long time!

Muffy,

Thanks for posting your training, really interesting and good stuff. If I would give that a go in my next marathon, what would you suggest I'd do if I'm at much lower milage and level? (I'm 43yrs average 45-52mi/wk and 2:48 marathon). Should I keep the quality as it is and fill with easy running or would the load be too much or should I reduce the quality miles a bit?

[quote]

A couple of things:

1)This training program is tailored to, and emphasizes my strengths, recovery and durability

2) The schedule's primary focus is 2 quality runs a week of 20 miles or longer

3) I have scaled my training down for two other people, one with a high mileage of 80 and one with high mileage of 55

4) Intensity remains the same, however, volume of intensity decreases, overall dichotomy between easy and hard days increases, and a few long easy runs are substituted in for workouts to meet the demands of the marathon.

In the link below I copied the training plan I wrote for the person running 55 miles/ week max in preparation for Boston. Their requirement was to have set workout days because of their work schedule.

http://imgur.com/mIxC6mA

To clarify a few things, at your 2:48 I would suggest paces, (based on Daniels vdot):

E=easy - 7:33

L=Long -7:14

M=Marathon - 6:24

T= Threshold 6:04

K= intervals 5:34

s= Speed 1:17/400

In "K" workouts, the 3xmile are at T pace, 1ks are at k pace, and less than 400s are at s pace.

Easy days (non highlighted days) are recovery and can be run in 1 or 2 runs as you would like.

Each workout has a comment in the spreadsheet that includes paces, wu, cd and rest. If you would like access to the spreadsheet, just post your email.

I was just reading another thread and story about Matt Llano, then checking out his training blog-

he ran the 2x6 at 4:50 pace (not at altitude) exactly two weeks before his goal race (Berlin this weekend).

http://mattllano.com/training/

Interested to check out how the race goes for him

Muffy,That's very nice of you to share the marathon training plan and for putting in the time to post such details.I don't mean to be too critical, but it appears that that schedule you posted doesn't have very many Long Runs (even for someone who tops out at 55mpw).Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I only see one final long run in the last 7 weeks?Personally I like the Pfitzinger/Canova approach to the marathon a lot more than Daniels (my Hoka teammate Magda might argue with me on that though!). VDOT tables and training intensities seem to work very well for half marathon and under, but for the longer stuff I think the details of the Long Run as a single workout are pretty key.For the 2:48 marathoner (about 6:25 pace give or take), you have Daniels saying Easy Day Pace (E)= 7:33 pace and Long Run pace (L)= 7:14. I'd say for the most part, those paces could have huge variation. For example, some days I run my easy days at 7:30 pace...but other days it's 6:30 pace. For this guy, maybe he's going over 8-min pace some days and that's fine.The important thing is that on Long Run days he's busting a lot of sub 7's and maybe has a nice 6-8-mile stretch at the end of a 20-miler where he's running 6:35-6:40 pace or faster.Then the Threshold (T) at 6:04 pace is pretty spot on. Lots of work in the 6:10 to 5:55 range for his Tempo Runs and 1-mile, 2-mile and 4-mile repeats. Keep the recovery times pretty short if run as intervals though (i.e. 4-5 min jog for between 2-mile repeats). Throw in a couple 1km repeat workouts and mile repeat workouts at a little faster pace for Running Economy and that's all one really needs. But the most important element (IMO) are still the Long Runs as quality workouts and consistent mileage.

Wow! Thanks alot man!! Looks really good. I used a custom Daniels plan that took me from 2:52 down to 2:48:03 so I'm well accustomed to his paces. Really appreciate it. My email is attached.

Thanks!

Thanks for the input! I like the structure of Muffys program. When I ran my first marathons (9yrs ago) I just started doing Canova style workouts for 8-10wks, like 4x5k@MP, 3x6k@MP etc twice a week and a 20mi long run/wk@E. Back then I avreraged 30-35mi/wk, bumped it to 40mi/wk for the 8-10wks prior to the marathon.

I've run 12 marathons, 8 between 2:58-2:52, crashed 3 and last year 2:48:03. The last one I bought a custom daniels plan. Averaged 45mi/wk max 60 for 18wks. Long runs always E and MP longest run was 13mi. I think what took me to 2:48 was more T work. Muffys program looks like it could suit me really well. Thanks both of you for share info and good comments. Appreciated!

This thread is pretty comical. I don't agree with Sage on much, but he's certainly right that Hansons training is meat grinder-esque. Most people break down and never run to their potential on marathon race day. Or on 10000m race day. There are amazing outliers, but most of the people get chewed up and spit out without you guys ever learning their names at all.

2 x 6 miles @ MP-5 might not sound too tough, but consider that it's coming during nearly peak mileage (maybe 115-135 miles that week, compared to 125-150 in the several weeks before). It also comes around 10-14 days after the simulator (16.2-mile tempo during PEAK mileage). It's followed immediately by an 8-mile tempo (first 4 at MP, followed by 4 @ MP-10). It's a very difficult stretch of training. You might feel amazing for the simulator, but not so hot 4 weeks later. This is speaking from experience. Sage maybe pushed himself too hard occasionally at Hansons, but I also know that he held back many times, when no one else was.

Lastly, Luke Humphrey is not "retired" from competitive racing. That's simply untrue. He still follows the program, and races at a high level. Probably a low blow to brag about beating him, as he's struggled with injuries the last 4 years, but he's not retired by any means.

I don't have time to prove read, so I may not address everything but below are the long runs for each week.

13: 2 hrs

12: 2.5 hs

11: 2.5 hrs

10: 13mi, 15mi

9: 15.5mi, 16mi

8: 3hrs, 13mi

7: 13.5mi, 17mi

6: 14mi, 18mi

5: 18mi

4: 2.5hrs

3: 13.5mi, 18mi

2: 13mi, 12mi

If you ask me, that's a ton of long runs for a 3:15 marathoner that did this schedule. What is the point of a 2:45 marathoner doing fast finish long runs or cranking down the pace of every long run every week? Would you advocate for any long runs at just easy pace? unfortunately the recovery running and wu and cd notes are buried in comments in the spreadsheet.

Easy day was mentioned that it was a "suggested" pace and dependent on recovery. Like you Easy days vary, but I rarely have a run average slower than 7:00/mi and rarely faster than 6:30/mi except for long runs with no structure. If I ever have to run slower than 7:30/mi, then I take the run off. I believe easy days should be easy and dependent on how you feel.

Addressing Daniels, his marathon schedules are designed for sea level, at altitude, some days T pace is slower and M is spot on, other days M pace is slower and T pace is spot on. This was told to me directly by someone who ran for Jack for some time.

As far as Canova, I'll come out and say his training plan is a bad idea for low mileage or slower runners (slower as in not 2:2Xs or faster). Most people won't recover, never need to worry about pace changes (since they aren't the 1% racing for the win, only time trialing) and neglect the need to "spend" time on your feet, i.e. long moderate pace long runs. A 2:20 marathon and a 2:45 marathon are two different races. Fueling is more of an issue. I over fueled my first several marathons, that's why I kept getting sick. Now I have half a gu at 12 and half a gu at 18, with an occasional splash of sports drink to swish in my mouth..

Under the schedule I've written, the long runs are not meant to be fast finish. It is supposed to be an "easy-hard" day. On those days. I will run 23mi at average 6:10 pace, running no faster than 5:55 usually.

Ultimately there are many different ways to train the varying physiological systems, but it's best to be consistent with what you do and believe in what your doing.

How does much of this training correlate to ultra stuff? I know nothing about ultra training. If I were to approach it, I would approach it the same way that I would coach a 3:30 marathoner. Just curious.

Muffy wrote:

I don't have time to prove read....

looks like I "proved" my point....proof....smh...

Your response is exactly why Americans will never be competitive on the world level. HANSONS SCHEDULE IS TOO EASY. 16 mile tempo at marathon pace with a week recovery followed with 2 by 6 mile and another week before an 8 mile at slightly faster than marathon pace should be easy for a World Class Runner. If guys are breaking down on something as easy as that then they should quit the sport.

I understand that the Hansons have had 30 plus guys that have run under 2:20 but why no one under 2:10? Because they don\'t train hard enough. There is a reason that 2:15 is considered good.

How many of these guys run 160 mpw? None since Brian Sell.

Hansons act like they work hard. Sure it\'s hard compared to a hobby joggers but it is a long way from World Class.

Who said that it was a week "recovery" after the simulator? Did I say that? There is typically a hard long run and a track workout between the two. And easy days are 14/6 doubles.

How many have run 160 mpw? I dunno. But a whole lot have run 140-155 mpw, and averaged 140 mpw for entire segments.

Shouldn't have even responded, given that you are a troll.

Ah yes, well if you were doing big workouts like 3 x 6km and 4 x5km off of 30-35 mpw (or even 40mpw) I can see why there would be problems. Those are big workouts. Heck, I won't do those off of 120mpw!A Daniels 2 X 20-min Tempo run would be a better workout for you most of the time. And I agree with Muffy that Canova would be not an ideal fit for someone running under 50-60mpw and maybe not under 2:30ish at least. I like his take on the Long Runs for the most part though. Muffy, I must've read your schedule wrong. Didn't see those longer efforts in the last 5 weeks...however, I won't call a 13-15 miler a Long effort unless someone is running fairly low mileage. The idea is to run glycogen stores low. The T (Lactate Threshold) work is key, as is consistency with mileage. But mixing in some MP or near MP in Long Runs and getting that fat burning capacity and muscular stress/strength is most specific to the marathon.

Soft and getting softer wrote:

Your response is exactly why Americans will never be competitive on the world level. HANSONS SCHEDULE IS TOO EASY. 16 mile tempo at marathon pace with a week recovery followed with 2 by 6 mile and another week before an 8 mile at slightly faster than marathon pace should be easy for a World Class Runner. If guys are breaking down on something as easy as that then they should quit the sport.

I understand that the Hansons have had 30 plus guys that have run under 2:20 but why no one under 2:10? Because they don't train hard enough. There is a reason that 2:15 is considered good.

How many of these guys run 160 mpw? None since Brian Sell.

Hansons act like they work hard. Sure it's hard compared to a hobby joggers but it is a long way from World Class.

Uh, yeah. Read this thread to get an idea how to break 2:10 off 90/week.

Agree. More LT is needed for me. My aerobic capacity and LT are too close to each other. Need to better LT to get more out from MP. Will work on that by adding one LT workout/wk during base work (10wks) before trying out Muffys program.

Sage, Muffy, RunningArt, and others,

Thank you for contributing to make this one of the best threads I have seen pop up on LRC in a long time. I regularly post in the Road Racing and Training Thread as it is a very constructive, supportive community of runners of all ability levels. Sadly, there is little of that left on the message boards these days. This thread is a great reminder of what LRC could be.

I wanted to throw my hat in the ring regarding Canova training for non-2:2X runners. As it happens, I am a guy looking to run low- to mid-2:40s at Philly, and there are two other posters in the Road Racing and Training Thread aiming for sub-2:40 at Chicago who follow what I would call very Canova-inspired training. There also happens to be a guy shooting for the OTQ in Berlin this weekend, and an up-and-comer aiming for low-2:20s at Columbus who regularly post in that thread that also follow Canova-inspired training.

For the most part, everybody following a Canova plan has had a great cycle. No major injuries or setbacks. Everybody giving themselves proper recovery (3-6 days) after the bigger workouts, everybody for the most part hitting the same %s of goal MP for the same style workouts. Now obviously, the faster guys are putting in more miles (100-120mpw), while the 2:40s crew has been running about 70-85mpw, with some weeks in the high 90s.

I guess we will find out soon as everybody starts racing how adaptable Canova training is for a wider range of abilities than it seems either Muffy or Sage is recommending.

I think the important point to realize is that if you aren't at least a 2:2Xs runner, you have to scale down the volume of the workouts to your ability level. By that I mean, instead of doing crazy long sessions like 40k at 95% goal marathon pace, mid-pack guys like me might target 18-20mi at 90-95% goal marathon pace. Instead of 4 x 6k at 100% MP off 1k moderate recoveries (MP + :30/km), maybe substitute 4mi/3mi/2mi/1mi at 100% MP off 1mi moderate recoveries (MP + :45/mi).

What I have found to be interesting while following the faster guys' training is that I am at about 80% of their level. By that I mean, I do about 80% of their weekly and workout volume, my pace is about 80% of their paces, etc. But big picture, we are actually doing close to the same amount of overall time per week dedicated to running. The fast guys for example might do 10mi/5mi easy day doubles at 7:00/mi pace. I do 8mi/4mi easy day doubles at like 8:00-8:30/mi pace. When you do the math, they run about 70 minutes for the 10mi runs and about 35 minutes for the 5mi runs. I spend about 65-70 minutes for my 8mi runs and about 32-35 minutes for my 4mi runs. I think this is an important note that us mid-pack guys have to realize. We shouldn't have to work comparatively harder than the elite/sub-elite guys. I think the time on your feet factor really comes into play, and is important for the purposes both of training and recovery.

Finally, I wanted to address Muffy's comment that he didn't think it was as valuable for mid-pack guys to hit those supplementary paces between HMP and MP since we are not dealing with surges or contending for the win, we are in essence time-trialing and trying to run as efficiently as possible. From a tactical standpoint, I completely agree with you. We should be trying to run as even an effort as possible.

But for me, those supplementary paces have helped me really bridge the gap between 10K pace and MP, and made MP feel that much easier. For example, my interval workouts have progressed and will hopefully continue to progress along the following line (10 x 800m at 5:32/mi, 6 x 1mi at 5:43/mi, 4 x 2mi at 5:50/mi, 3 x 3mi at 5:58/mi, 2 x 4mi at 6:05/mi, 2 x 5mi at 6:10/mi). I will also do continuous tempos, like 6mi steady at 5:55-6:00/mi, or 7mi progression tempo from 6:15-->5:55/mi. These of course are in addition to the important types of long runs that Sage espouses (e.g., 18mi at 90-95% MP, 20mi as 10mi easy/5mi moderate/5mi MP, 18mi with 12mi MP in the middle, 16-20mi depletion runs, etc.). Progressing in that line and "converging" on goal MP mentally has been probably the most valuable part of this cycle for me, my first stab at Canova. This is in contrast to say, Daniels, where you spend a lot of time at T pace and M pace but not in between, or Hansons where you constantly hit strength pace and MP and moderate pace, but nothing really in between.

But as I said, I guess the proof will really be in the pudding when race day rolls around for everybody. Speaking of which, best of luck Muffy this weekend on getting your OTQ. The same goes for you Sage when your race(s) roll around. And if he is still following this thread, TheGarbageDisposal I will be tracking you on Sunday!

For a competitive runner in the 2:30 range, the 2x6 mile is still a pretty tough workout. If I give that workout to anyone, it's typically at least 3 weeks before the marathon and I will very rarely give that athlete both a "simulator" and a big volume workout like the 2x6. Also, for this group of runners, I make them put the brakes on at MP-5 seconds.

Actually, what I have found for most people in this category- I guess I'd describe as a regional elite athlete- that if I can give them one speed or strength type workout during the week and then either a big tempo or long run (or long run/combo) workout on the weekend that they respond very well.

With any program, if you take what was done out of context, get too aggressive on runs, don't know the purpose of the runs, and don't recover from the really hard runs, then you'll get hurt. You look at any person who is really successful and has a great track record of solid performances, the common denominator is just steady consistent training in big blocks of time. You can find that trait across the board, regardless of coach or system.