America no longer exceptional wrote:
if you take away the african american minority, the united states is a below average sports country in the same league as indonesia and india.
And why would you do that? They're no less American than Anglo Americans.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
I'm not trying to claim that African-Americans are any less American than anyone else. As far as I'm concerned, if anyone is "more American", it's the Native Americans, but they don't play much of a role in T & F these days. The point is, most of the people, including most of those on this website, who like to go on and on about how great the US is at track are white people. Take away the sub-population of people whose ancestors were brought here as slaves, and the US would be average at best at track. Without looking up the exact statistics, blacks make up something like 11% of the US population, but win, what, 80+ percent of the running medals?
Again, as the person you're replying to asked, why would you do that? They're no less American than Anglo Americans.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
The overall point is: it's hypocritical for USA fans to talk about Russians as some sort of lowlife while acting like we are the purest of the pure.
No it's not. 99% of USA fans are not dopers.
logician wrote:
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:I'm not trying to claim that African-Americans are any less American than anyone else. As far as I'm concerned, if anyone is "more American", it's the Native Americans, but they don't play much of a role in T & F these days. The point is, most of the people, including most of those on this website, who like to go on and on about how great the US is at track are white people. Take away the sub-population of people whose ancestors were brought here as slaves, and the US would be average at best at track. Without looking up the exact statistics, blacks make up something like 11% of the US population, but win, what, 80+ percent of the running medals?
Again, as the person you're replying to asked, why would you do that? They're no less American than Anglo Americans.
Oh, I get it now! You're one of those awesome people who doesn't even see race at all, so you don't understand what I'm talking about. Let me explain further: I'm saying that white Americans brag about how great "we", the US, are at track. I'm saying that it's African-Americans who are great at track at a world level. White Americans are average at best.
You may think there is no distinction between white and black Americans, but if you follow current events, you may notice that, regrettably, the rest of the country doesn't all feel the same way. You could even identify a historical trend of whites doing horrible things to blacks. So it seems (to me - not to you) a little odd when whites brag about the US being great at track, as if in that one area, we are all color-blind (like you, right?).
Anyway, that wasn't even the main point being discussed. The main point was, the US likes to adopt a superior attitude, when in fact they are cheaters just like the rest.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
The overall point is: it's hypocritical for USA fans to talk about Russians as some sort of lowlife while acting like we are the purest of the pure.
No it's not. 99% of USA fans are not dopers.
Is that supposed to be a witty rejoinder? How about this one: eat sh!t.
USA track and field has had its share of dopers, but what about USA distance runners? 800 on up? We have the recent OTC, Alberto, Rupp, TUE's news... But not too much of a history with it, it's been mainly sprinters. Slaney, Hesch (Lol).... Who am I forgetting about. Am I getting old and forgetting or is the list short?
Russia is not exposed. They are screwed for political purposes,
This is basically just another boycott.
90 % in the top are dopers.
Notsostrict wrote:
Let the 3rd world dope wrote:If you think the Ethiopians and other Africans (never mind Cubans, Brazilians and more) who are NEVER tested out of season are clean, you're an idiot.
Cuba population : 11, 2 Million
Poor communist country with no professional sports league.
The Netherlands population : 17 Million.
Extremely wealthy country
According to WADA anti-doping testing figures 2014 (p. 77):
https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/wada_2014_anti-doping-testing-figures_full-report_en.pdfCuban National Anti‐Doping Agency :
Out Of Competition tests (Blood+urine) : 1908
Total tests : 2002
Netherlands Anti‐Doping Authority :
Out Of Competition tests (Blood+urine) : 796
Total tests : 1947
Those figures are indeed schocking considering the wealth (and population) disparity between the two countries.
They are even more surprising to me, as I don't remember seeing, in 2014, an army of Cuban speedskaters winning more medals than the rest of the World, in the winter OG.
The Netherlands = 3rd World ? Cuba = 1st World ?
Cuban-Netherlands parity is not the point.
As Seppelt's latest work with Ashenden and Parisotto shows, bio-passport tests that could lead to a positive are just sitting unprocessed.
Track and Field has an enormous disparity between blood tests and urine tests anyway. The few blood tests they do, aren't doing anything to protect the integrity of the sport.
Except they weren't treated as Americans or even humans until say about
50 years ago.Jessee Owens couldn't even walk through the front doors of the
hotel where he was being honored for his Berlin performance and had to
take freight elevator.Very hypocritical and deceitful to claim we're all 'Americans' when we all know different.Funny I don't hear we're all 'Americans' when a black person commits a crime,the race distinction is quickly and clearly made.
I was done with this thread as soon as a guy started ranting about Kenyan records not improving in years. If your grievance is world records not going down, then talk to the Ethiopians or El G. Your own argument falls apart if you look at actual Kenyan records. The Kenyans are running very comparably to their national records.
Info wondering wrote:
USA track and field has had its share of dopers, but what about USA distance runners? 800 on up? We have the recent OTC, Alberto, Rupp, TUE's news... But not too much of a history with it, it's been mainly sprinters. Slaney, Hesch (Lol).... Who am I forgetting about. Am I getting old and forgetting or is the list short?
The news there was how they used FAR FAR FARA LESS TUE's and for short periods of time than was claimed here for years. Including the fact that TUE's are permitted, and that Rupp was only on Thyroid for a brief period a zillion years ago, compared to the persistent false claims here.
coach.. wrote:
1000
1500
2000
3000
2 mile
5000
10,000
Every kenyan record dates from 15-20 years ago
Inexplicable that no new talent has emerged on track
Epo is the reason why
The reason has nothing to do with EPO and everything to do with money. Almost all of the top talent is bypassing the track completely and going straight to the roads and marathon where there is actually money. There is almost no money on the track anymore for 5/10K types.
That combined with almost no world class time trials put together at those distances anymore.
Without Hajo Seppelt, Russia would still be up there.
Next stop, Kenya, where you can still buy the pills in a back alley pharmacy. Not that much longer...
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
Oh, I get it now! You're one of those awesome people who doesn't even see race at all, so you don't understand what I'm talking about.
No, this is not the case.
I do see race, which is why I made the distinction between African Americans and Anglo Americans. I also understand your argument.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
Let me explain further: I'm saying that white Americans brag about how great "we", the US, are at track.
Merely pointing out that the United States has the best track team is not sufficient for qualifying as bragging.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
I'm saying that it's African-Americans who are great at track at a world level. White Americans are average at best.
The term average at best, by definition, does not apply to winning medals. Some medal winners at global championships in the past include, Jeremy Warnier (OG gold, OG silver, 2 WC gold, WC silver), Deena Kastor (OG bronze), Shalane Flanagan (OG bronze [likely upgraded to silver soon], WXC bronze), Kara Goucher (WC bronze [likely upgraded to silver soon]) Jenny Simpson (WC gold, WC silver), Shannon Rowbury (WC bronze, 2 CC silvers), Emily Infeld (WC bronze), Molly Huddle (CC bronze), Emma Coburn (CC gold), Christian Wurth-Thomas (CC bronze), Galen Rupp (OG silver), Nick Symmonds (WC silver). All of the aforementioned athletes are white Americans. This list includes running events only. If one includes field and multi events, the list of white Americans would be even longer.
The claim white Americans are average at best is a universal claim. Universal claims need only one counter example to be false. I've gone far beyond that. Therefore, your claim white Americans are average at best is false.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
You may think there is no distinction between white and black Americans
I don't think that nor have I ever made that claim.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
but if you follow current events, you may notice that, regrettably, the rest of the country doesn't all feel the same way.
Again, I don't think that there are no differences between white and black Americans, nor have I ever made that claim.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
You could even identify a historical trend of whites doing horrible things to blacks.
This has nothing to do with your claim that white Americans should exclude African Americans when examining the success of the United States' team in track and field.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
So it seems (to me - not to you) a little odd when whites brag about the US being great at track, as if in that one area, we are all color-blind (like you, right?).
First, I'm not color-blind, nor have I ever claimed or implied that I am. I merely pointed out that African Americans are no less American than Anglo Americans, and therefore, shouldn't be excluded when examining the success of Americans in track.
Second, again, merely pointing out that the United States has the best track team is not sufficient for qualifying as bragging.
Third, since you aren't explicitly stating the point you're implying I'll state it for you. Your argument is this:
premise 1) White Americans brag that the United States has the best track team.
premise 2) The success of the United States' track team is due only to black Americans' success.
premise 3) White Americans are average at best in track.
premise 4) One ought not point out the success of a country in track unless the one pointing out the success is the same race as the person or persons who are having said success.
conclusion) Therefore, white Americans ought not include the success had by African Americans in track when examining the success of the United States' track team.
Let's examine this argument.
Premise 1 holds that white Americans brag about the success of the United States' track team. Firstly, it is a fact that the United States has the best track team. Merely pointing this out isn't sufficient to qualify as bragging. Second, it is certainly possible that pointing something out can go beyond just that and indeed, qualify as bragging, but it is not the case however that Americans, and more specifically, white Americans bragging about having the best track team happens enough to qualify as being a common occurrence that deserves remaking upon. But further, even if it is the case that any American brags that the United States has the best track team, it's true. The United States does have the best track team. Bragging about it doesn't make it untrue.
Premise 2 holds that the success of the United States' track team is due only to black Americans' success. This is not the case. See my above list of white American runners' successes. Therefore, this premise is false.
Premise 3 holds that white Americans are average at best in track. This is not the case. See my above list of white American runners' successes. Therefore, this premise is false.
Premise 4 is the premise your conclusion depends on, as well as the one you've been implying but haven't explicitly stated. This is perhaps because it has a weird racial undertone to it. Nonetheless, premise 4 holds that one ought not point out the success of a country in track unless the one pointing out the success is the same race as the person or persons who are having said success. Apart from the racial undertone, this premise is strange because it doesn't have any justification for it being the case. The United States is a multi-racial country of immigrants. African Americans are no less American than Anglo Americans, or any other Americans. There is no rational reason as to why white Americans should discount the success of African Americans when examining the success of the United States' track team, nor is there a rational reason as to why an American should discount the success of any other American in track if that American is a different race. Therefore, this premise is false.
Your conclusion is dependent upon a false premise, and therefore, your argument is unsound.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
Anyway, that wasn't even the main point being discussed. The main point was, the US likes to adopt a superior attitude, when in fact they are cheaters just like the rest.
The United States doesn't like to adopt a superior attitude because the United States is a country and countries do not have attitudes.
And again, your claim that:
It's hypocritical for USA fans to talk about Russians as some sort of lowlife while acting like we are the purest of the pure.
is false.
It would be hypocritical for American dopers (or dopers of any nationality) to criticize Russian dopers whilst pretending that they themselves do not dope.
It is not hypocritical for 99% of USA fans to criticize Russian dopers because the vast majority of USA fans are not doping, nor are they athletes.
Further, it is not hypocritical for USA fans to criticize the Russian athletics federation or Russian anti-doping agency because it's true that the Russian athletics federation and the Russian anti-doping agency has a major doping problem, one that is supported by officials within Russian Athletics and the Russian anti-doping agency. It's not hypocritical because 99% of USA fans are not officials working for USATF or USADA, and those that are do not support or cover up doping, which segues into the next point:
It's not hypocritical for USATF or USADA to issue official statements criticizing Russian Athletics or the Russian anti-doping agency because doping is not supported or covered up by either organization.
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
Is that supposed to be a witty rejoinder?
No, it was me pointing out your mistaken reasoning
Lee Greenwood's evil twin wrote:
How about this one: eat sh!t.
When one becomes angry while discussing any particular issue such that the person starts insulting those who hold views different from his or her own, it's usually a sign that the person is unable to consider and discuss the issue rationally.
Logician: The fact that you put that much effort into such a lengthy response lowers your value below "Lee Greenwood's evil twin."
Russians are frauds. Watch the video:
anti-logician wrote:
Logician: The fact that you put that much effort into such a lengthy response lowers your value below "Lee Greenwood's evil twin."
No it doesn't.
I wish Seppelt would go after Ethiopia. That fraud has gone on too long. And for the record, I was the biggest Haile fan back in the day.
anti-logician wrote:
Logician: The fact that you put that much effort into such a lengthy response lowers your value below "Lee Greenwood's evil twin."
No, it doesnt
I well thought out and detailed response, such as the one by logician, trumps many message board responses, which are often ad hominem, too brief, one sided, open ended, or by a troll
The fact that Americans point the finger at other countries for doping amazes me. The US has had the biggest dopers in the history of the world. Olympic gold medalists like Marion Jones and Justin Gatlin caught red handed. World Champions like Kelly White busted. Legends like Lance Armstrong and Mary Slaney proven dopers. Not to mention world record holders like Montgomery...Those were only the ones caught, now imagine the ones that haven't...Do you honestly think that Carmelita Jeter, Sanya Richards, Carl Lewis, Allyson Felix, Flo Jo, Maurice Green, Galen Rupp, Centro, Jeremy Warner, Michael Johnson, Leroy Burrell, Jackie Joyner Kersey, Gail Devers or Gwen Torrence never used drugs??? 90% of US track athletes I guarantee have a drug regimen...GUARANTEE its only fools that like to believe that these folks are clean. Give me a break. Remember when we all thought Tyson Gay was clean??? If Tyson (the saint) Gay got busted, do you honestly thing that the people named above competed clean? Americans have no business pointing the finger at other countries, look to your athletes first. History will tell you that you´re a bunch of hypocrites when your heroes are usually the ones who end up getting busted at a higher rate than the countries you point the finger at.
How about that Regina Jacobs huh??? Noooooo Americans compete so cleanly.....
anti-logician wrote:
Logician: The fact that you put that much effort into such a lengthy response lowers your value below "Lee Greenwood's evil twin."
^this
People who waste their life on such lengthy responses, and who cannot even write an unbroken readable text, but have to comment on a series of quoted fragments, are not worth listening to. Such reasoning/writing is typical of HS students who have just been introduced to simple algebra.
How about Kiprop. He seems to be still running OK
For American to accuse other countries of mass doping is a bit pot & kettle. Steroids built their medally tallies over the years.