RIP Kenny "The Snake" Stabler

btownrunnin wrote:

Sally V wrote:

... as too was Jim McMahon and the '85 Bears.

Now I know you know nothing about football. The Bears were an offensive juggernaut in 1985 and McMahon and his ability to move the ball and read defenses was a big part of that. The Bears were second in the league in points scores, first in point differential and first in rushing. McMahon was third on the team in rushing behind Payton and Suhey, and I highly doubt Dilfer could've done what McMahon did on that Monday night game against the Vikings. Did you ever even watch the 85 Bears play? I did, I saw every minute of every game and McMahon was far from a game manager.

Whoop dee doo. He rushed for 250 yards. What is that? 17 yards a game? His completion % in '85 was 56%. You know how poor that is? Vince Young had a higher completion percentage every year but his rookie season.

sally V wrote:

...

2) Those who keep on harping about different era - that is true but that is only going to matter on number of TDs and Yards - not the TD/INT ratio - which Stabler's was abysmal.

While you're at it you might want to explain why:

1) 7 of the top 8 top TD/INT ratio QBs are currently playing!

and

2) The top TD/INT ratio QB whose career ended before the 80s is Roger Staubach who, at #42, comes in behind such luminaries as:

Daunte Culpepper

Trent Green

Jason Campbell

Steve Bono

Chad Pennington

David Garrard

and Mark Brunell

LOL ^ 1,000

What the What wrote:

sally V wrote:

...

2) Those who keep on harping about different era - that is true but that is only going to matter on number of TDs and Yards - not the TD/INT ratio - which Stabler's was abysmal.

While you're at it you might want to explain why:

1) 7 of the top 8 top TD/INT ratio QBs are currently playing!

and

2) The top TD/INT ratio QB whose career ended before the 80s is Roger Staubach who, at #42, comes in behind such luminaries as:

Daunte Culpepper

Trent Green

Jason Campbell

Steve Bono

Chad Pennington

David Garrard

and Mark Brunell

LOL ^ 1,000

You don't realize it but you helped reinforce my points. Here are the top 50 TD/INT ratios. YOu will notice all are well above 1. Stabler's was well BELOW 1.

1. Aaron Rodgers, 2005-2014 110 3,475 2,286 65.8 28,578 57 226 3.96 106.0

2. Tom Brady, 2000-2014 209 7,168 4,551 63.5 53,258 143 392 2.74 95.9

3. Peyton Manning, 1998-2014 256 9,049 5,927 65.5 69,691 234 530 2.27 97.5

4. Tony Romo, 2005-2014 145 4,210 2,743 65.2 33,270 110 242 2.20 97.6

5. Steve Young, 1985-1999 169 4,149 2,667 64.3 33,124 107 232 2.17 96.8

6. Philip Rivers, 2004-2014 148 4,678 3,025 64.7 36,655 122 252 2.07 95.7

7. Drew Brees, 2001-2014 203 7,458 4,937 66.2 56,033 194 396 2.04 95.4

8. Andrew Luck, 2012-2014 48 1,813 1,062 58.6 12,957 43 86 2.00 86.6

Donovan McNabb, 1999-2011 167 5,374 3,170 59.0 37,276 117 234 2.00 85.6

10. Matt Ryan, 2008-2014 110 3,916 2,508 64.0 28,166 91 181 1.99 91.1

11. Joe Montana, 1979-1994 192 5,391 3,409 63.2 40,551 139 273 1.96 92.3

12. Jeff Garcia, 1999-2009 125 3,676 2,264 61.6 25,537 83 161 1.94 87.5

13. Ben Roethlisberger, 2004-2014 159 4,954 3,157 63.7 39,057 131 251 1.92 93.9

14. Neil O'Donnell, 1991-2003 125 3,229 1,865 57.8 21,690 68 120 1.76 81.8

15. Rich Gannon, 1987-2004 157 4,206 2,533 60.2 28,743 104 180 1.73 84.7

16. Mark Brunell, 1994-2011 191 4,640 2,761 59.5 32,072 108 184 1.70 84.0

17. Dan Marino, 1983-1999 242 8,358 4,967 59.4 61,361 252 420 1.67 86.4

18. David Garrard, 2002-2010 86 2,281 1,406 61.6 16,003 54 89 1.65 85.8

19. Joe Flacco, 2008-2014 112 3,657 2,213 60.5 25,531 90 148 1.64 84.8

20. Kurt Warner, 1998-2009 125 4,070 2,666 65.5 32,344 128 208 1.62 93.7

21. Alex Smith, 2005-2014 110 3,149 1,901 60.4 20,858 76 122 1.61 82.8

22. Chad Pennington, 2000-2010 90 2,471 1,632 66.0 17,823 64 102 1.59 90.1

23. Sam Bradford, 2010-2013 49 1,760 1,032 58.6 11,065 38 59 1.55 79.3

24. Randall Cunningham, 1985-2001 161 4,289 2,429 56.6 29,979 134 207 1.54 81.5

25. Matthew Stafford, 2009-2014 77 3,099 1,848 59.6 21,714 85 131 1.54 83.6

26. Cam Newton, 2011-2014 62 1,923 1,144 59.5 14,426 54 82 1.52 85.4

27. Brett Favre, 1991-2010 302 10,169 6,300 62.0 71,838 336 508 1.51 86.0

28. Matt Schaub, 2004-2014 139 3,191 2,040 63.9 24,311 86 130 1.51 89.5

29. Neil Lomax, 1981-1988 108 3,153 1,817 57.6 22,771 90 136 1.51 82.7

30. Michael Vick, 2001-2014 138 3,151 1,767 56.1 22,093 87 131 1.51 80.4

31. Andy Dalton, 2011-2014 64 2,111 1,301 61.6 14,758 66 99 1.50 85.2

Ryan Tannehill, 2012-2014 48 1,662 1,029 61.9 11,252 42 63 1.50 84.0

33. Steve Bono, 1985-1999 87 1,701 934 54.9 10,439 42 62 1.48 75.3

34. Kyle Orton, 2005-2014 87 2,712 1,613 59.5 18,037 69 101 1.46 81.2

35. Steve McNair, 1995-2007 161 4,544 2,733 60.1 31,304 119 174 1.46 82.8

36. Jason Campbell, 2006-2014 90 2,518 1,519 60.3 16,771 60 87 1.45 81.7

37. Carson Palmer, 2004-2014 144 4,906 3,071 62.6 35,365 155 224 1.45 86.3

38. Bernie Kosar, 1985-1996 126 3,365 1,994 59.3 23,301 87 124 1.43 81.8

39. Trent Green, 1997-2008 120 3,740 2,266 60.6 28,475 114 162 1.42 86.0

40. Jay Cutler, 2006-2014 119 3,871 2,390 61.7 27,749 130 183 1.41 85.2

41. Daunte Culpepper, 1999-2009 106 3,199 2,016 63.0 24,153 106 149 1.41 87.8

42. Roger Staubach, 1969-1979 131 2,958 1,685 57.0 22,700 109 153 1.40 83.4

43. Eli Manning, 2004-2014 169 5,609 3,308 59.0 39,755 185 259 1.40 82.4

44. Byron Leftwich, 2003-2012 60 1,605 930 57.9 10,532 42 58 1.38 78.9

45. Matt Hasselbeck, 1999-2014 201 5,074 3,066 60.4 34,948 148 203 1.37 82.3

46. Matt Cassel, 2005-2014 90 2,369 1,397 59.0 15,727 70 96 1.37 80.1

47. Jeff George, 1990-2001 132 3,967 2,298 57.9 27,602 113 154 1.36 80.4

48. Brad Johnson, 1994-2008 177 4,326 2,668 61.7 29,054 122 166 1.36 82.5

49. Jim Kelly, 1986-1996 160 4,779 2,874 60.1 35,467 175 237 1.35 84.4

50. Jeff Blake, 1992-2005 120 3,241 1,827 56.4 21,711 99 134 1.35 78.0

WWRD wrote:

Interesting list. Ken Anderson is the only other one that merits some consideration, but he was never great in the clutch.

Now that RUSH is in the Rock n Roll HOF, Stabler not being in Pro Football HOF may be the greatest injustice (Pete Rose is, but he's not even eligible).

Lots Of QBs wrote:

NFL QBs who were MVPs and aren't in the Hall of Fame?

Roman Gabriel

Earl morrall

John Brodie

Bert Jones

Brian Sipe

Ken Anderson

Boomer Esiason

Rich Gannon

and Stabler

Rich Gannon will probably get in at some point. I know he was nominated at least once. One doesn't think about him much but when you see some of his accolades it seems like he has the chops:

AFC Champion (2002)

4× Pro Bowl (1999, 2000, 2001, 2002)

2× AP First-Team All-Pro (2000, 2002)

3× SN First-Team All-AFC (2000, 2001, 2002)

2000 NFL MVP (MX)

2002 NFL MVP (AP, PFWA, NEA, SN, MX)

2× AFC Offensive Player of the Year (2000, 2002)

NFL Passing Yards Leader (2002)

2× Bert Bell Award (2000, 2002)

3× AFC Player of the Year (2000, 2001, 2002)

2× Pro Bowl MVP (2000, 2001)

DAWG POUNDED wrote:

Brian Sipe MVP, jesus that must have been A LOUSY YEAR! :-)

You got that right. It was the year when the big 1970's dynasty teams were all done at the same time for a while. Steelers and Cowboys mainly, The Dolphins had the top team early in the decade and lost key players to the World Football League,

The Raiders were a wild-card team that year and if Rutigliano would have let me kick a 20 yard field goal game sealer the Browns (an 11-5 team) would have likely gone on to beat San Diego and been the favorite in the Super Bowl against the Eagles.

Yeah it was a weak year but Sipe deserved his MVP award, 30 Td passes and only 14 interceptions and a QB rating of 91. And 4132 passing yards. Which were huge numbers in those days.

It sucks that sports media only realizes Stabler deserves the Hall after he died. They should have been writing about this injustice 20 years ago.

Look at Brady's super bowls. In the first and second he managed to drive his team to a point where Adam Vinatieri could kick long field goals to win those games. IIRC Vinatieri was also the reason they even made it to one of those super bowls. Without Vinatieri the Patriots would have two less super bowl rings.

No quarterback in the all-time stats other than Staubach that played before the 1980's. I realize you are trolling now if you think you are winning this debate by posting these stats. Or you seriously believe Philip Rivers would have been the superstar QB of the 1970;s if he was on a good team,

Philip Rivers actually has had a number of good teams around him. That team is cursed or something - San Diego has always managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Sally V wrote:

What the What wrote:

While you're at it you might want to explain why:

1) 7 of the top 8 top TD/INT ratio QBs are currently playing!

and

2) The top TD/INT ratio QB whose career ended before the 80s is Roger Staubach who, at #42, comes in behind such luminaries as:

Daunte Culpepper

Trent Green

Jason Campbell

Steve Bono

Chad Pennington

David Garrard

and Mark Brunell

LOL ^ 1,000

You don't realize it but you helped reinforce my points...

So, these are not your words:

"Those who keep on harping about different era - that is true but that is only going to matter on number of TDs and Yards - not the TD/INT ratio"

??

Please read this carefully...Ken Stabler (who I was a fan of) had Hall of Fame receivers Fred Bilentikoff, Dave Casper AND a HOF-finalist in Cliff Branch. Like NO ONE has had a receiving corps like that. NOW, lets look as his career rating (even Elvis is ahead of him!) :

CAREER PASSER RATING LEADERS (at start of 2008 season)

Player

Years

Rating

1

Steve Young

1985-99

96.81

2

Peyton Manning

1998-present

94.72

3

Kurt Warner

1998-present

93.17

4

Tom Brady

2000-present

92.93

5

Joe Montana

1979-1994

92.26

6

Carson Palmer

2004-present

90.12

7

Daunte Culpepper

1999-present

89.95

8

Chad Pennington

2000-present

88.89

9

Marc Bulger

2002-present

88.08

10

Drew Brees

2001-present

87.94

11

Jeff Garcia

1999-present

87.24

12

Trent Green

1997-present

86.9

13

Dan Marino

1983-99

86.38

14

Matt Hasselbeck

1999-present

86.23

15

Donovan McNabb

1999-present

85.78

16

Brett Favre

1991-2007

85.7

17

Jake Delhomme

1999-present

85.23

18

Rich Gannon

1987-2004

84.71

19

Jim Kelly

1986-96

84.39

20

Mark Brunell

1994-2006

84.21

21

Brian Griese

1998-present

83.64

22

Roger Staubach

1969-79

83.42

23

Brad Johnson

1994-present

83.09

24

Steve McNair

1995-2007

82.76

25

Neil Lomax

1981-88

82.68

26

Sonny Jurgensen

1957-74

82.62

27

Len Dawson

1957-75

82.56

28

Ken Anderson

1971-86

81.86

29

Bernie Kosar

1985-96

81.83

30

Neil O'Donnell

1991-2003

81.82

31

Danny White

1976-88

81.71

32

Troy Aikman

1989-2000

81.62

33

Dave Krieg

1980-98

81.5

34

Randall Cunningham

1985-2001

81.47

35

Boomer Esiason

1984-97

81.06

36

Warren Moon

1984-2000

80.9

37

Jeff Hostetler

1985-97

80.48

38

Bart Starr

1956-71

80.47

39

Ken O'Brien

1984-93

80.44

40

Jeff George

1990-2001

80.42

41

Fran Tarkenton

1961-78

80.35

42

Steve Beuerlien

1988-2003

80.32

43

Dan Fouts

1973-87

80.23

44

John Elway

1983-98

79.86

45

Tony Eason

1983-90

79.72

46

Elvis Grbac

1994-2001

79.65

47

Chris Chandler

1988-2004

79.12

48

Mark Rypien

1988-2001

78.93

49

Jim Everett

1986-97

78.59

50

Aaron Brooks

2000-06

78.53

51

Phil Simms

1979-93

78.48

52

Bert Jones

1973-82

78.21

53

Johnny Unitas

1956-73

78.2

54

Jim McMahon

1982-96

78.17

55

Otto Graham

1946-55

78.17

56

Jeff Blake

1992-2005

78.03

57

Bobby Hebert

1985-96

78

58

Frank Ryan

1958-70

77.61

59

Jim Harbaugh

1987-2000

77.6

60

Joe Theismann

1974-85

77.37

61

Bob Griese

1967-80

77.14

62

Jay Fiedler

1995-2005

77.13

63

Drew Bledsoe

1993-2006

77.06

64

Bill Kenney

1980-88

76.98

65

Jon Kitna

1997-present

76.75

66

Erik Kramer

1987-99

76.64

67

Gary Danielson

1976-88

76.58

68

Doug Flutie

1986-2005

76.34

69

Stan Humphries

1989-1997

75.83

70

Michael Vick

2001-06

75.75

71

Wade Wilson

1981-98

75.57

72

Steve Bartkowski

1975-86

75.44

73

Ken Stabler

1970-84

75.31

Those stats are meaningless because of how different the rules of the game have been the past 15 years compared to the 60s, 70s and 80s. A quarterback had to be a lot tougher back then and even the receivers could get mugged all the way down the field until the "5 yard limit to bumping" rule went into effect.

As Mark Twain said "There are three types of lies: Lies. Damn Lies. and Statistics."

Joe Montana is easily the greatest quarterback of all time. Steve Young had great stats, but ALWAYS choked in the playoffs until the year he had perhaps the most overpowering team ever around him (Watters and Floyd in the backfield, Rice, Taylor and Jones, an ungodly strong defense where Richard Sherman was THIRD STRING.) Brady is an above-average player who is part of a system where the quarterback is expected to play safe, turnover-free, high percentage plays while backed by strong defense and an overall very strong team where the coach is a great play caller. Payton Manning still has only one ring and has choked in big games (super bowl against New Orleans.)

Excuse me, Richard Dent on defense for 49s, not Richard Sherman. Getting old.

Sally V wrote:

Please read this carefully...

So, these are not your words:

"Those who keep on harping about different era - that is true but that is only going to matter on number of TDs and Yards - not the TD/INT ratio"

??

I'm not arguing that Stabler was one of the best 25 quarterbacks of all time to date. He was one of the best in his era and he led a team that was a dominant power, He was a star in his day, Because the Raider's were a bad-ass team then and he was the leader. Screw the stats that are meaningless to compare due to how the rules have changed concerning defensive pass coverage,

It was a different game then. Terry Bradshaw had great receivers too and one of the greatest defense of all time. 4 Super Bowl rings. How can you say he was any better than Stabler if you just go by stats. And can you say that Stabler was not worthy of being rated the third best QB in the NFL only behind Staubach and Bradshaw for that decade? Oh he might be 4th behind Fran Tarkenton.

Its not about stats or QB ratings.

+1 Couldn't have said it better.

I was agreeing with you 100%.

George, you are on point!

He was one of the best in his era and he led a team that was a dominant power, He was a star in his day, Because the Raider's were a bad-ass team then and he was the leader. Screw the stats that are meaningless to compare due to how the rules have changed concerning defensive pass coverage!

Has Charlie Sheen said, WINNING! Snake was a winner!

Phil V. wrote:

George, you are on point!

He was one of the best in his era and he led a team that was a dominant power, He was a star in his day, Because the Raider's were a bad-ass team then and he was the leader. Screw the stats that are meaningless to compare due to how the rules have changed concerning defensive pass coverage!

Has Charlie Sheen said, WINNING! Snake was a winner!

So much statistical vitriol. You are correct sir, the man was a winner on the field throughout his career (not so in divorce court, though). The 70s Raiders were the most entertaining team of that era and you'd meet people far from the Bay Area who said they were big, bad Raider fans.

I've been a football fan since 1958. The 49ers of Y.A. Tittle, Hugh McElhenney, Joe Perry, Bob St. Clair, Jimmy Johnson, R.C. Owens were my first favorite team.

I'm not saying that Kenny Stabler is one of the top ten quarterbacks of all time, but he was my second favorite (behind only Joe Montana). I hated John Brodie and became a Raider fan throughout the 70's, the best era of the NFL.

It's hard to believe he's not in the Hall of Fame.