PAAVO system of training...

Evil Paavo wrote:

Given the choice, they both picked Paavo over U of M. On a cost basis, I wish they would have picked the U of M camp because it costs half as much.

Anyone else besides me see the irony here?

I know that a lot of MI coaches are big into PAAVO; I grew up there and follow the MI scene closely. If it works for them, great. Anything that excites kids about running is good. Touting a method as superior to others when the claim is dubious at best is not. I remain unconvinced.

why do you have the name nurmi? mr. paavo himself trained nowhere near the style of this program. and come on, the elites are missing out on something? they have the top coaches and staff in the world and i would think they would always be looking for ways to get better. so by your logic, lets have all the paavo coaches take over the africans training! who cares about lydiard, canova, rosa, hermans, lets have them all just do paavo! and its funny how pretty much the only way you can find out how to do it is dish out big money at conferences and the only people who go to those conferences are nieve high school coaches. there is a reason why the top coaches stay away. people say you can argue paavo against science. that is where you reach a big time wrong my friend. lets hear why racing 3 times a week ALL YEAR LONG is beneficial. and these just arent races, they are death marches. when i ran paavo, i had to run my first mile in under 4:40 and "try to hold that pace for the next 7 miles." no wonder why i hate a crappy junior year. once i quit paavo, i took off nearly 30s seconds off my 3200m in a few months. paavo is just a scam by marshall sellers to make money off stupid coaches who are looking for quick success. but nurmi, you seem so much for paavo. post on the other threads with coaches like renato canova, jack daniels, antonio cabral, etc and set them straight because you obviously no more than them. how many world record holders are you coaching? and you mentioned alicia craig ran it. she has the collegiate 10k record now and trains at stanford totally unlike how she did in high school. no wonder why she improved so much. heres a challenge to you. lydiard took neighborhood athletes and made them olympic champions. i want you to do the same thing with the paavo program and see where your athletes finish in bejiing. happy running.

Ok, I have had enough with the bashing. True, there are many systems out there. If you look at the sources for the Paavo system, they are Lydiard and Jack Daniels--both well respected coaches of distance runners.

For the person who thinks that the SPPM, LPPM, and mile on saturday are racing three times a week, then you are not doing them correctly. What you are supposed to do is give your best effort for that day, NOT get hyped up because it is a race. Also, your easy days are based of that mile, so you should be 90 seconds per mile slower than your mile pace. for example if you ran that mile in 5:00 your easy day pace would be 6:30 which is reasonable. And if you cant hit the easy day pace, you cant hit it. Its a goal time, and you will not burn in hell if you dont hit it. As for the set interval times, those are also based on your mile pace. There is a range 1-2 seconds plus or minus the goal time. For example, if your best mile is 4:44, then your 400's should be somewhere between 70 and 72. Even pacing is not new, which is what the system is trying to develop.

As for runners who have done the Paavo system and had success in college? Alicia Craig of Stanford and Jamie Kryzminski of Michigan State were both multiple all-americans in the 10k and cross country. Nick Hird (10K national qualifier) of division 3 power North Central College is a Paavo runner. former Indiana 3200 meter champ Jeremy Wright (who is currently a professional runner doing extreme runs) was a Paavo runner. And even though he never states a specific program, the future of US distance running, the Ritz himself used pieces of the Paavo system in High school. You want high school programs that have done well with the system? Campbell County High School in Wyoming has used it to put their cross country teams at or near the top of their state rankings year in and year out. There are several schools in Indiana along with the Columbus North team, that use the Paavo system and won the titles. There also schools in Michigan --Caledonia, Corunna,Akron-Fairgrove,Fremont, etc. who have all used the Paavo system to win state titles, both individual and with teams.

Admittedly,Runners who use the system in high school have shown some difficulties transitioning to college programs. NOT because the Paavo system is bad, but because the runners are picking where they run by how much money they might get in scholarship or aid, degree program or campus location. the runners are excited that they can run in college on team and are so excited that they dont look into the program itself and see if it fits their strengths. they are wowed by the recruiting process and being wanted by a program, but dont really see that it is difficult to have the discipline to continue high level training while being away from their home routine.

I have seen the Paavo system work for a number of people and I have seen a number of people fail with it. The system doesnt work for everyone, but if used correctly, then it will help develop a runner and help them achieve their potential. It will only work if the runner does one thing--runs. Work ethic is a valuable component of this system and if a person is not committed to attaining their goals, then they will not do well with the Paavo system. As for the wisecrack about Paavo being a religion and getting people to run every day, thats crap. The Paavo system can be done running seven days a week or 6 days a week, but it they say it works better with seven do help with the recovery.

And lets get one thing straight--the running camps are structured 100% differently than the in-season and out-of-season programs. the camps are a series of different runs and in between the different runs they teach you about the in and out of season programs.

Bottom line, if you dont like it, dont use it. But before you start a witch hunt and tell people that it will give them cancer or something, then let people decide for themselves. There is literature out there. Contact Marshall Sellers, Rick Weinheimer, Gordon Aldrich, or Rich Thompkins, they have done the program for years with successes and failures, but they have done it.

Nurmi wrote:

It is unfortunate that elite professionals and colleges have not tuned in as of yet.....when one or the other does they will run with the best that the world has to offer and beat them! The time is coming when that will happen......without drugs! Could it be possible that the "elites" are missing the boat.....is that a possibility that any of us would begin to even consider just a little bit??

EUREKA, I HAVE FOUND IT!!! THIS, MY FRIENDS, MAY BE THE MOST RIDICULOUSLY ASSININE POST EVER MADE AT LETSRUN (or any other running site)!!!

So mile pace + 90 sec is about Marathon pace or a little slower. So a week is

MP run

Tempo run

MP run

Tempo run

MP run

1 mile TT

MP run Longer than normal

Ya that's not all bad if done correctly (as in not to hard or long with proper warm up and cool down ) other than doing a mile TT every week seems stupid at best. Also doing that all summer long with no rest weeks would build up a lot of fatigue. No wonder all those runners seem to get hurt or burnt out. Even Christan Wagner didn't hardly improve if at all his senior year under Weinheimer. I would say he was just very talanted and survived. In two years we will see what he can do when trained by a coach and not someone who went to a PAVVO camp 10,000 times...

"Ya that's not all bad if done correctly (as in not to hard or long with proper warm up and cool down ) other than doing a mile TT every week seems stupid at best. Also doing that all summer long with no rest weeks would build up a lot of fatigue. No wonder all those runners seem to get hurt or burnt out. Even Christan Wagner didn't hardly improve if at all his senior year under Weinheimer. I would say he was just very talanted and survived. In two years we will see what he can do when trained by a coach and not someone who went to a PAVVO camp 10,000 times..."

If you had read the literature or followed the program correctly, you wouldnt be doing the TT or the tempos for the whole summer. It is just a build up before the intervals which are done in season. A typical year would go like this......

May-- finish up track season.

June 2nd-- last meet, school is done.

Take two to three weeks easy.... which if that means for you no running, fine. If it means a mile or two a day, fine. No time limits, no tempos, etc.

Last week in June, first in July, Start tempos & TT's. Continue until you start official practice in middle of August. Then, if base is large enough, start intervals. If not, continue through August with tempos and TT. Then in September begin intervals.

Go through season beginning of November/2nd week of november.

Season ends, take two to three weeks easy. Begin tempos and TT again. If you have a real indoor season (not just all comers meets) follow the interval workouts, if you just have all comers meets, continue with the tempo/TT. In the winter, depending on where you are at, weather will be the major factor of your pace on the tempos and TT. Give your best effort. The conditions will dictate how you will perform, but understand that you are just building base and aerobic capacity. Also, while doing the out of season training follow the 10% progression. For example, if you start by doing 20 miles in the first week, go 30 miles the next week, and 40 miles for the third week. The fourth, fifth, and 6th weeks should be 40 miles as well. Then go 50, 60, 70, (and 70 for 3 weeks).

So the runner who is doing the off season training is trying to build a bigger base of miles to draw from, the summer is really only 5 or 6 weeks of training under the system and the winter is about 6 or 8 (depending on when you can officially start practice).

I have done this in high school and college and it has helped me quite a bit. Over the years I have adapted certain aspects of other programs, but there are certain pieces that I still use and I have been running for 14 years.

My two cents.

you got it wrong purdue. here was my off-season training using paavo.

monday-long run

tuesday-one mile all-out, "hold that pace" for 3 miles. usually would run under 15 minutes.

wednesday-"ct run" which is pretty much a tempo run

thursday-same as tuesday, this time an 8 miler. i would hit 3 under 15 again, and barely able to hold a 7 minute mile pace by the end going almost all out. remember, you have to try and hold your all-out first mile pace.

friday-another "ct" day

saturday-mile time trial

sunday-another "ct" day

paavo may work for the average runner who doesnt know pain but if you tell me to run the first mile of a run in under 4:30 and hold that pace for the next 7 miles, i am going to kill myself doing it.

alicia craig used this program? ive seen her high school training, she was not doing paavo. she did a good amount of hill repeats. does paavo call for that? ritz did "bits and pieces of it?" i eat junk food from time-to-time. does that mean you could put my name as taking part in an all junk food diet? some days i go on walks. does that mean im a follower of jeff galloway? alicia craig is a very accomplished college runner. what kind of training did she do when she broke the collegiate 10k record? not paavo. you give names of succesful paavo people out there. how about i give a few names of non-paavo people.

el g

gebreselassie

stepehen cherono

paul tergat

kennisa bekele

the list goes on and on..........

Im gonna kick anyones ass that says this system doesn't work, for one don't bash it til you have actually tried it. for two, not only has this program made individuals and teams better it is harder than many college systems out there for sure, im in college now, and it is nothing like what i did in high school with paavo.

This is becoming a ritual every 6 months or so. Someone will come on here asking about PAAVO then it gets trashed by people who have NEVER used it.

My high school program used it and so did my college program (small NAIA school). My high school only had 400 students and lived and breathed football and basketball. The XC team barely got 7 guys out to run and rarely more than 5 girls. During my junior and senior years we sent two individual boys to the Indiana state meet (single class by the way) and the team made it to semi-state for the first and only time my junior year. After I graduated the girls team had a multi-time state champ int he 1600m and XC (again single class).

My progression under the PAAVO system:

Frosh: 18:13...4:52-4:37 1600m

Soph: 17:30...4:27 1600m, 9:55 3200m

Junior: 16:16 (sectional champ, state 30th)...9:36 3200m (12th state)

Sen: 15:53 (state 12th, All-State, Indiana All-Star team)...9:32 3200m (7th state, all-state)

I had a bad first year of college, mostly due to drinking and running under a different system threw me for a loop. As someone said before, running under PAAVO becomes somewhat of a religious experience. You believe nothing is better. So, first college XC race 27:30 then downhill finished the season running 29-30:00 for 8k 20lbs overweight with a slipped lumbar disc. Transfered to a small NAIA school which ran the PAAVO system. Eventually got down to 26:26 my last year there and nearly made NAIA nationals. Women's team at the school went to Nationals as a team.

So, I have a deep history with the progam and BA in Exercise Science so here's my take:

Basics:

Offseason-

*Good mileage, I eventually got up to 80-90 during the offseason

*1 Long Run, 1 short PPM, 2 long PPM, 1 timed mile

*Goal of long PPM is to come through in short PPM pace (run 3 miles on tuesday, run 4 miles on thursday coming through 3 miles at same time as tuesday's run)

*PPM should be "all-out", but even paced, no sprinting at end.

*Easy Runs (CT: Critical Threshold) "should" be run :45 per mile slower than PPM pace at that distance (you run 10 miles all-out in 60 minutes your "easy" pace for 10 miles "should" be 6:45.

Critique: The off-seaons prepares you SPECIFICALLY for the demands of racing because you're basically racing 2-3 times a week. A race, and thus any effort that simulates a race, will work ALL aspects of training. The PPMs are basically a spin off of Lydiard's Time Trials, which if you remember were done a couple times a week.

Preseason/Earlyseason-

*Lower mileage (I was down to 60-70, sometimes 50)

*Tues/Thur: Short/Long set of Slow Intervals. Start with 400s build throughout the season to 800s. Novice runners may start with 8x400/12x400. Advanced may do 12x400/16x400. Speed I believe is based on PPM times, but end up being around 5k pace. Rest is 3-4 minute jog, 6-8 between sets of 4 (or 2 if 800s).

*May start racing, keep interval days. So, one race, two interval days. Long set of slow intervals takes the place of your long run.

Critique: The pace of the slow intervals works directly on your race pace. You develop the feel of race pace and with the long rests you can run at race pace rep after rep without really tiring. The slow interval days shouldn't be difficult. The pace of the slow intervals also corresponds to a pace that is used to train Vo2max.

InSeason/LateSeason-

*Mileage remains. No typical "peaking".

*Pace intervals, usually on Monday, in addition to slow intervals.

*Pace intervals vary from 200s-1600s and total distance is 1600m less than slow intervals (if doing 3-4 miles worth of slow intervals you do 2-3 miles worth of pace intervals). There are short and long sets of pace intervals and are done once a week though sometimes twice a week if no race for a total of 10-12 total pace workouts during the season. (16x200, 24x200, 8x400, 12x400, 4x800, 6x800, 2x1200/400, 3x1200/400, 2x1600, 3x1600...)

*Speed varies but is somehow based on slow interval times. Basically the 200s-800s end up being around 1600m pace and the 1200s-1600s end up being at or under 3200m pace. The rest is STANDING 1:00-2:00 between reps (HR under 120) and jog twice rep distance between sets of 1600m

*So on race weeks the plan usually is: Sun-Long set Slow Intervals, Mon-Pace intervals, Tues: easy, Wed: Race, Thu-easy, Fri: Short set Slow Intervals, Sat: easy. One non-race weeks you just add in another Pace Interval day.

Critique: This is where the Anti-PAAVO sentiment comes from...3 interval days a week plus a race. The Pace Intervals work on lactic acid tolerance. By standing instead of jogging the lactic acid pools in your legs. The act of jogging between reps helps to clear the lactic acid out so by standing instead of jogging you are attempting to keep some of the lactic acid in your legs thus making it much harder to complete the next rep. You are running with a high level of lactic acid in your legs, at least higher than if you were to jog between reps. This helps the 5k cross runner or the 3200/1600m runner where a lot of the race is run under a high level of lactic acid. Being able to run fast under such conditions is critical.

Overal Critique: It works if you follow the program and if you have athletes who are physically able to tolerate the workload. There are injuries, as with any successful system. I personally was never injured in high school. I don't think it would work well in college because the distances are longer, except for the females. It's a good program for a high school 5k/1600m/3200m runner because it works on 5k race pace and Vo2max, works on lactic acid tolerance, and gets the most out of the athlete in as little time possible. It's good for short term success (4 years) in the 5k down to the 1600m. For it to be successful for longer distances (10k-halfmarathon) you need to increase the distance of the slow intervals while reducing the pace (800s-miles at 10k pace) and decreasing the number of pace interval workouts (no more than one per week). I did this and ran a 1:09:40 half-marathon (not great, but faster than most). The difficulty comes when the athlete has to tone down the number of workouts leading up to a race because he's not used to doing that. Not cutting the workout load (specifically the pace intervals) leading up to a race could (and did in my case) lead to injury.

Alan

Note about easy days and PPMs:

The system I used in high school and college surely made a few "adjustments" concerning easy run pace and holding short PPM pace through the long PPM.

The all-out mile was never used to pace the PPMs. The PPM may however be based on that mile time (mile time plus x seconds for 3 mile PPM, etc).

The difference in length between short and long PPMs was 1 mile and that made it quite a bit easier to come through the long PPM at short PPM pace especially with improved fitness over the summer.

The CT/easy days were just run by ear. I would just hold it at 6:45 pace no matter the distance. I figured I could run a 10mile PPM in around 60:00 so CT would be 6:45, though sometimes I would get down to 6:20 or so.

Alan

First off don't act like an idiot on here saying that the people on here have never run it. Everyone on here sure seems to know a lot about it to not have run it. Now I am sorry but the whole thing doesn't make sense. If you know how to make your body hurt then you are going to be able to run your first mile close to your all out mile. For the person who stated that a ppm run isn't actually a race because you aren't supposed to get mentally into it that is also retarded. I can almost guarentee that I can run a 4:10 mile race and in a hard workout I can make my body run a 4:15 mile. So really is that 5 seconds that much of a difference I don't think so. Of course my mind didn't get into it so it supposedly didn't have that much of an effect in burying my body yeah right. Next here are my pr's for everyone that wants to put them.

Fresh 17:15

Soph 16:15 started to run paavo during track after running this time

Junior 16:12 still running paavo stopped during track

Senior 15:43 running my own thing

College Fresh 26:15

Soph 25:15

Junior 24:40

now isn't it amazing how I was able to improve more without paavo I mean I did improve a whole 3 seconds on paavo of course that was until later that year in december when I ran a 18:30 ppm run all out and felt exhausted for days. Also if running 7 days a week isn't the point of paavo then why is it that all you hear from mr. sellers is hey this guy has 1500 consecutive days comon open your eyes. The elites don't do it. The colleges don't do it. Guess what the high school coaches don't know more.

I just have one question about the PPM runs- without the adjustments you made. How do you run an all out 3 mile on tuesday and then run an all out 4 mile on thursday at the same pace as the all out 3 mile on tuesday? Shouldnt that be impossible? Im not talking about in terms of recovery- its just that i thought pace slows down as race distance increases- but you are just supposed to ignore that i guess? Why not just run a 2 mile all out at 1 mile all out pace then youd probably have a PR :)!

The only thing I know about the system is that our high school coach uses it for his team as well as himself. The ppm run he does is at the same pace that McMillan suggests for a tempo run. It is NOT all out. I have jumped in and did interval workouts with them and found the sessions far less taxing than what I was doing on my own because the emphasis is on PACE rather than the fastest you can run them. As for "goodness gracious", I would be ashamed to admit you are a junior in college given your extremely POOR writing skills. From your post, it looks like your coach did not know how to administer the program rather than the program being flawed. On second thought, based on your writing skills, maybe it was just you who didn't run the system as it should have been run because you didn't take the time to listen and learn.

then if he does a tempo run, its not a ppm. ppms will build up significant amounts of lactic acid and thats three times a week. i was racing an all out mile on saturday, an all out 4 mile on tuesday and an all out 8 mile every week! how many races a week do top runners run? certainly not 150 a year! i ran a 1:58, 4:25 and 9:34 within 3 hours of each other my sophomore year off paavo. i did paavo my junior year and couldnt break 9:45 or 4:30 fresh. i dropped it after that year and ran 15:13 in xc and was a sub 4:20 miler in track. and about your lydiard reference, those type trials were more or less steady staet sessions done at 7/8ths effort, far from 100% effort that paavo recomends. lydiard also had them do it late in the season before they peaked because they were intense workouts. he was way too smart to do them year round. the proof is in the pudding and no elites do paavo. therefore it will not make an elite runner. lydiard is speaking around the country right now. i would like you to meet up with him and ask him about what he thinks and tell him its better than anything he has recommended. high school coach, go back to your high school kids. and also take some classes in exercise physiology and then explain to me how paavo makes sense.

Holly $hit this program is bad. I will make sure never to offer money to a PAVVO high school kid. I just don't want to deal with the attitute and serious lack of knowlege about training. These kids are injuries weighting to happen. I have seen great performances come but at the same time I've seen promissing runners do nothing from the same school and wondered why. Now I knew that PAVVO was the program at the school but shit I had know idea it was this bad. In college my room mate ran PAVVO and hasn't ran one step since (been 7 years). He was from this high school. He always said he and everyone on the team was brain washed ... Another kid from this school went to a very good college (top 3 NCAA CC material) to run and had SEVEN ... SEVEN stress fractures. Now I would have to blame PAVVO for breaking the poor kid down. High school coaches have no right to destroy a kids running future with this crap. Its horrible.

No $ for school for PAVVO kids from me...

Her story is so sad. Yes, Paavo got her to a 19 5k, but w/ a focus on long term aerobic development, she likely had the potential of 18's, 17's, or even 16's. If she was patient, and allowed her body to adjust to a new system of training (which likely relied more on developing aerobic abilities which were severely neglected), she would have been able to really find out her true potential. Aerobic development takes time. It's too bad she was not patient. This is the downfall of Paavo and she is not a success story. So she runs 19's for the local 5k (it aint that fast).

It seems that this program neglects the most important goal: a patient and diligent focus LONG TERM aerobic development. This program will not develop great collegiates or Olympians for this reason. Thank god Meb and Deena were not Paavo disciples or we would not know their names today.

Paavo is the american way. Get it quick. Get it fast. Who cares about a runner's potential in 10 years.

[quote]girl coach wrote:

Her story is so sad. Yes, Paavo got her to a 19 5k, but w/ a focus on long term aerobic development, she likely had the potential of 18's, 17's, or even 16's. If she was patient, and allowed her body to adjust to a new system of training (which likely relied more on developing aerobic abilities which were severely neglected), she would have been able to really find out her true potential. Aerobic development takes time. It's too bad she was not patient. This is the downfall of Paavo and she is not a success story. So she runs 19's for the local 5k (it aint that fast).

It seems that this program neglects the most important goal: a patient and diligent focus LONG TERM aerobic development. This program will not develop great collegiates or Olympians for this reason. Thank god Meb and Deena were not Paavo disciples or we would not know their names today.

Sad?? Her story is sad? She is not a success story? How? Because she won most of her HS races, her conference meet and was all-state? Who are you to state that she has the potential to run anywhere from 18's to 16's. Based on what? What I've said here on an internet forum? Please. I'm no expert, but after a year, you should see some decrease in time, not a steady increase. And don't tell me it is because of Paavo. She had plenty of time to adjust to the college coach's program and it didn't work for her. Or the other 5 non-Paavo girls. And if you had read carefully, you would have noticed that I said she is back to 19's with half the effort she had to put forth for her 21's in college.

I have just a few comments...

I ran the PAVO system in HS, and have been to 3 of their camps. The camps are awesome, very motivating, I would suggest them to every HS athlete. First off, I feel that the easy days are WAY too fast. According to this system recovery days are 90sec slower than your mile time trial. This would have a 4:30 miler running easy days at 6:00 per mile. I think it is a great program for HS kids stressing tempo runs and preseason work, but I do not think it would be effective for more advanced athletes.

An earlier poster outlined the program stating that you take 2-3 weeks light or off at the end of each season. While it is suggested you take some time light taking days off is NOT EVER suggested. This is my biggest problem with the system. Teaching consistent training is a great concept, but I have seen kids run through injuries and sickness just to keep their string of continuous days of training. I ran with more than one guy in college that came from a PAVO system of training. All of them that did it religiously in HS struggled with burnout their first few years of college. Some of them made it through, some didn't, but I think teaching HS kids that taking an occasional day off is bad is one of the worst injustices you can do to them.

Developing athletes need the increased aerobic capacity, yes, but the anerobic threshold is important in the developmental years. Every coach realizes that and preaches that. Most every succesful runner does a.t. runs year round, in every phase of training. I think that you are getting that confused with short, anerobic intervals.