Another Huge Russian Doping Scandal - 2011 World, 2012 Olympic champ Mariya Savinova implicated + IAAF treasurer

just sayin wrote:

next up hopefully an expose of the 90s east african track stars and the ethiopians

Don't hold your breath. Countries in which women are the predominant athletics stars are where corruption like this exists.

boomtown rascals wrote:

Didn't Shobukhova have better track credentials than P. Radcliffe? And even drugged, she couldn't get close to Radcliffe's WR in the marathon?

She got within about 40 seconds of the non-assisted record.

Left Said Fred wrote:

just sayin wrote:

next up hopefully an expose of the 90s east african track stars and the ethiopians

Don't hold your breath. Countries in which women are the predominant athletics stars are where corruption like this exists.

Uhhh, yeah right...as if only women will take advantage (or can be the only benefactors) of PED's; so we can conclude a country having just male athletes on the podium (or both male and female athletes on the podium) is a country that doesn't dope.

No. Instead, what we can conversely conclude is that those countries have instead been sharing in a widespread complicity of PED's at the upper echelon of both male and female sport...likely for decades.

I mean look at the male dominated big money sports in the USA. Not like any of those football players or baseball players would touch PEDs. (rolls eyes)

fred wrote:

"...She also said Russian athletes had avoided out-of-competition testing by using false names during foreign training camps."

But it wasn't like, you know, where they were showing up at races under a false name or false age.

Sciatica Road wrote:

Don't hold your breath. Countries in which women are the predominant athletics stars are where corruption like this exists.

Uhhh, yeah right...as if only women will take advantage (or can be the only benefactors) of PED's; so we can conclude a country having just male athletes on the podium (or both male and female athletes on the podium) is a country that doesn't dope.

No. Instead, what we can conversely conclude is that those countries have instead been sharing in a widespread complicity of PED's at the upper echelon of both male and female sport...likely for decades.

I mean look at the male dominated big money sports in the USA. Not like any of those football players or baseball players would touch PEDs. (rolls eyes)[/quote]

Care to compare the men's and women's athletics records in the former Eastern Bloc powers? Where are Russia's male middle and long distance runners on the world scene? Where were China's male middle and long distance runners (and sprinters and throwers) in Ma's era? How is it the GDR could put five women under four minutes, but not a single man under 3'33?

If your point is they doped, then uh yeah, we already know that. They doped.

But to then try and draw some other conclusion, e.g., "countries that have both males and females on the podium then obviously don't dope", is simply, ridiculous.

Is that you, Jeff Wigand?

You're putting words in my mouth. Doping is present in the UK, in America, in Asia, Africa, and so on. But women dominating the scene is, as it has been, a hallmark of something big. You don't see women in the UK or America outperforming the men, for example. You agree?

InWyo wrote:

boomtown rascals wrote:

Didn't Shobukhova have better track credentials than P. Radcliffe? And even drugged, she couldn't get close to Radcliffe's WR in the marathon?

Their PRs are really comparable on the track...I wouldn't necessarily say that Shobukhova is really faster...Maybe by just a bit.

Shobukhova:

800 metres – 2:03.18 (2006)

1500 metres – 4:03.78 (2004)

Mile run – 4:22.14 (2004)

3000 metres – 8:34.85 (2004)

5000 metres – 14:23.75 (2008)

Radcliffe:

800 m 2:05.22

1500 m 4:05.37

1 Mile 4:24.94

3000 m 8:22.20

2 Miles 9:17.4

5000 m 14:29.11

Conveniently missing off 10,000m times 30:01 PR / 30:29

You are right, maybe I was presuming too much trying to interpret what you were implying. Evidently, you are just saying doping is a big problem in sport? But then, you seem to be saying, it is really big where women dominate the sport, and not as big where they don't?

Left Said Fred wrote:

You're putting words in my mouth. Doping is present in the UK, in America, in Asia, Africa, and so on. But women dominating the scene is, as it has been, a hallmark of something big. You don't see women in the UK or America outperforming the men, for example. You agree?

I've been here now off-and-on for a few years, and originally, the posts from supposed 'insiders' with 'hands-on insight' would talk matter-of-factly of how tainted it all was. And I just sort of ambivalently ignored them, because: (a) how much faith could you put in the claims of 'anonymous' message board posters;

(b) maybe, I (sort of) wanted to stay naive, holding on to a cleaner, purer reality.

But I've since come to accepting that maybe it has all been tainted, including those distance records from the '90's onward with EPO introduction.

Sciatica Road wrote:

....the lesser-advanced-state countries, like Kenya, would have the advantage over the more-advanced-state countries, like the USA, where a heavier hammer of penalties for illicit drug use, trafficking can be brought to bear on users, and the stigma for drug 'cheating' is more severe.

So has this, in effect, already been happening?

And further:

...would it not athletics become a full-on circus side-show, like body-building?

Maybe the hyping of side-show events, like beer-miles, is a somehow a psychological response to all of this?

Are you sure that Rowbury and Montano are clear?

boomtown rascals wrote:

Sciatica Road wrote:

...would it not athletics become a full-on circus side-show, like body-building?

Maybe the hyping of side-show events, like beer-miles, is a somehow a psychological response to all of this?

Not sure. But could be indicative that Nick Symmonds and Katie Mackey are:

done. If so, might want to move on to triathlon and try and become a decent 'jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none'.

Sort of on that vein, is Kara Goucher considering ultra-marathons?

The triathlon is probably dirtier than running. Ultras? I desperately want to believe that. because there is so little money and fame, they're clean. But there's also very little testing. And ultra runners are some of the biggest ego maniacs on Earth. I wish I could say I'd be surprised to learn that Ultras were dirty, but...

One of the top US ultrarunners is a pharmacist. That probably means nothing to some of you who also may be getting prescriptions filled by him/her.

LetsRun.com wrote:

The great work of German journalist Hajo Seppelt and ARD has paid off once again. A source had been telling us all fall that something big was going to break soon and here it is.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/12/olympic-world-800-champion-mariya-savinova-implicated-massive-russian-doping-scandal/

Truly amazing stuff that might only get bigger when we find out how far up the chain the bribes went. It's alleged that the Valentin Balakhnichev - the IAAF Treasurer who is the head of the Russian federation as well - was aware of $600,000 bribes paid by Liliya Shobukhova to not test positive.

Nothing like that would ever happen in the united States would it?

Ukrainian wrote:

Ukrainian, there is a difference, especially at the present time.

He's an ethnic Russian Ukrainian who supports Putin, FWIW

Once again, if this proves out, the penalties aren't harsh enough.

Four year ban followed by lifetime ban.

Or my favorite. One strike.

Life time ban.

Balian wrote:

Once again, if this proves out, the penalties aren't harsh enough.

Four year ban followed by lifetime ban.

Or my favorite. One strike.

Life time ban.

I am in favor of a slightly harsher standard (though I know it will NEVER get passed):

One strike, lifetime ban, repay all winnings (contract money, bonuses, appearance fees, etc), and have ALL of your times erased, not just from when you tested positive onward. This is the only true way to erase cheating. Knowing that you sample is held for the future, constantly tested as new tests emerge, and knowing that even if you can beat the test now, in 10 years, you might test positive and owe all the money you ever won. As I said, I know it will never get passed, but if the sport actually wanted to get rid of all cheating, it is as simple as that.

I agree with a lot of this except that it is hard to prove intent (if an athlete was legitimately sabotaged)

I think four year ban 1st offense and lifetime ban 2nd offense.

I agree about stripping ALL times and records erased. Not sure why we don't do that now. It should be ANYTHING before the positive result should be erased, regardless if they tested negative before that.