Could Symmonds beat Centro in a sit-and-kick?

hold the phone wrote:

Similarly, Manzano and Centro have to be considered 1500 runners, not 800/1500 or 1500/5000 runners. If you want an example of a 1500/5000 guy, take Lagat, who has competed in lots of Diamond League and World Championship races in both events.

Remember David Krummenacker? 1:43, back-to-back NCAA 800 titles, three-time US 800 champ, World Indoor 800 champ, moved up and ran 3:31... and yet I don't remember him as a particularly great kicker at 1500. Having great top-end speed and enough endurance to run a great 1500 doesn't automatically make you a great kicker -- that's a separate skill.

That's not a separate skill. A kick is only a matter of endurance.

Also, how many times you have competed in an event doesn't make you a type of runner. Your training determines what kind of runner you are. There are plenty of guys competing in (and even specializing in) events that aren't their ideal events from a fitness standpoint.

No

/EOT/

Dewey_Runner wrote:

I don't know that I'd call Manzano's 1:44.56 just a "respectable time", seems like a time to me that's good enough to warrant calling him a 1500/800 guy (like say Wheating or Ayanleh Souleiman). Either way my point is that while yes, Manzano is a 1500 guy more than anything else, he is more 1500/800 ORIENTED than 1500/5k like Centro is .

Yes, Manzano did pop one, but his history with the 800 isn't such that he is equally competitive in both events. He is a pure 1500m runner, 800/1500 guys are Peter Snell, Jim Ryun, Dave Wottle, Rick Wolhuter, Steve Ovett, Sebastian Coe, etc. You do see the difference? Yes?

malmo,

Relating to whether a runner is a "1500" guy or 15/5 or 8/15, etc., what is your opinion regarding claims that Mo Farah is a miler based on his very fast 1500 defeat last year, or that Rupp isn't mostly a 10,000 specialist by virtue of some fast indoor races?

I see Farah as 5/10 and Rupp as the similar but extra emphasis on the 10,000 (would like to see him go for something crazy in the HM or even M though).

Wheating could be considered an 800/1500. Has Nike finally given up on him?

That's a good example.

Bring Back the 880 wrote:

ododk wrote:

Yes. He is an 800m runner. They tend to have more speed than 1500m guys

That's not how it works. The speedier guys only have the advantage in a very, very slow sit-and-kick. You need endurance to have a good kick. Symmonds is great, but I don't see him out-kicking a kicker in a 1500.

We don't really know how much talent he has in the 15/mile though...so that is kind of he wild card.

Um...3:40 in college for D3. And he's only gotten better. So there's that....

Seyta wrote:

Since Centro has placed 3rd, 4th, and 2nd in the last 3 major international 1500m championships (all of which were tactical), it is fairly unlikely that Symmonds would be able to beat him in a sit-and-kick. The international 1500m field for men is VERY respectable and deep, and the 1st-3rd place times have ranged from 3:34 - 3:36 in the last 3 major outdoor championships. This means that in a tactical 1500m, he would effectively have to run his PR in order to compete well (and I really doubt that he would have much of a kick left while running at his PR pace).

Sums up my thoughts.

Centro will have a lot more reserves than Symmonds with a lap to go at any pace.

And enough speed to get away.

Bring Back the 880 wrote:

ododk wrote:

Yes. He is an 800m runner. They tend to have more speed than 1500m guys

That's not how it works. The speedier guys only have the advantage in a very, very slow sit-and-kick. You need endurance to have a good kick. Symmonds is great, but I don't see him out-kicking a kicker in a 1500.

We don't really know how much talent he has in the 15/mile though...so that is kind of he wild card.

I'm assuming this quote is in reference to yesterday's quote of the day.

I saw that and started to laugh. I'll pay Nick Symmonds $1,000 if he beats Centro at the 2015 USAs in a race where Centro is in top form (let's say under 3:36 prior to USAs).

But maybe Symmonds is being smart. How in god's name do you medal in the 800 with Rudisha, Aman, Amos, etc? Answer: You don't unless they are injured.

I would love to see him run the 1500. It would take big balls as making the team in the 800 is foregone conclusion. Making in the 1500 is far from guaranteed with Manzano and Centro. But if Centro assumes Wheating will be injured then spot #3 is a possibility.

Only 3 US 1500 runners ran faster than Symmonds 3:34.55 pb this year (leer, centro, manzano - Rupp also did it).

But beat Centro in a sit and kick? THe poster above said it best. That's not how it works.

Malmo is spot on about pure 800 guys running a 1500 aren't a threat even off a slow pace.

Those guys train to run hard from the gun and the be the one who slows down least the final 200 meters. Just because you have 45 second 400 speed doesn't mean you can "flip the switch" after already running 1200 meters.

In my early high school days I had piss poor endurance but because I was a 4/8 guy my coach would give me a hard time for not outkicking guys with slower 800 prs at the end of a cross race. I had the speed but not the strength to suddenly accelerate to it when already tired.

In his most recent flotrack interview, Symmonds says that his training volume is 60 mpw

400 m: 47.45 (2012)

800 m: 1:42.95 (2012)

These are Symmonds PRs. Does anyone think that an average 1:46 runner with a 400m PR of 45-46 is going to outkick Symmonds in a slow 800m race? Not gonna happen.

Sera wrote:

400 m: 47.45 (2012)

800 m: 1:42.95 (2012)

These are Symmonds PRs. Does anyone think that an average 1:46 runner with a 400m PR of 45-46 is going to outkick Symmonds in a slow 800m race? Not gonna happen.

True. The better underside speed won't matter. Take a guy like Cas Loxsom, he's run a 1:14 600 and has split 46 on the 4x400. Yet in championship races, where the pace is often more even, he hasn't won any titles. Based on his underside speed you might expect him to tear it up in a race that opens in 53/54. Nope. The better 800 guy wins an 800, not the 800 guy with the best 400 wheels.

rojo wrote:

But maybe Symmonds is being smart. How in god's name do you medal in the 800 with Rudisha, Aman, Amos, etc? Answer: You don't unless they are injured.

Well, for starters, Symmonds does have a Silver medal in the 800 already.

How in god's name would Symmonds medal in the 1500 with Kiprop, Kiplagat, any third Kenyan, Souleiman, Iguider, and Wote not to mention Centro, Nick Willis and Manzano?

Oh, and Makhloufi.

History has shown that 800m finals have more upsets than 1500m finals, so the 800 is the better shot.

A bigger issue than all of the quibbling regarding Nicky's kick vs. Centro's might be the fact that Nicky is turning 32 at the end of 2015 and he might be just past his prime at the middle distances while Centro might still be at his best. This is not clear to me, but it is something to consider...

I just have a hard time imagining Symmonds beating Centro in any type of 1500 race, fast from the get go, sit and kick, etc. Just because Symmonds is a faster 800 meter runner doesn't mean he'd have a better kick in a 1500. Centro would own him in any type of race.

oodg wrote:

malmo wrote:

The important thing about kicking, if you can run the final 200m in 26 or better, you'll be competitive in almost any race. I don't think that Symmonds has that ability at the end of a 1500m

You don't think Symonds could run a 26 in a 3:40+ race???? Symmonds has run 1:42 hasn't he??

Not closing in 26 he hasn't.

rojo wrote:

Making in the 1500 is far from guaranteed with Manzano and Centro. But if Centro assumes Wheating will be injured then spot #3 is a possibility.

I'm surprised to see you mention Wheating as a contender. He strikes me as the longest of longshots.

kdkx wrote:

That's not a separate skill. A kick is only a matter of endurance.

Tell that to Dave Bedford, or any number of other guys with fantastic endurance but no kick! It's certainly true that a kick doesn't just come down to who has most sprint speed, but neither is it true that it comes down to who has the best endurance. It's a separate skill.

The great Martin Hemsley once told me about a 1,500 where he outkicked the great John Marshall. Marshall could run 1:43 but the true miler had the advantage in that race. And it was sit and kick.