African Age Cheating

Jeff Wigand wrote:

The Champ wrote:http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/john-kipkorir-yego-201564#progression

Answer truthfully: do you think this guy ran 1:46 at the kenyan olympic trials in 2004 when he was 14 years old?

How fast did he run to gain entry to the trials? When did he runs this fast?

Seems to be some error there. Other sites list him as having been born in 1983.

Sadly this is the name Ali Bali Mansoor ran under before changing his name. As Mansoor he still claims the 88 birthday and competed in age-retricted meets based on it.

nn wrote:

They don't have a system that accurately records their birthdates. It goes far beyond the sport of track as to why this is the case. This has been recognized as an issue for decades in the junior age groups.

If you don't have an accurate record of your birthday you shouldn't be allowed to run in an age restricted competition.

800 analyzer wrote:

If there is not reasonable certainty on ones age, they should not be in events with age limitations. Period. Beyond that, I could not care less if they have suspect ages or want to lie, or just make up numbers if they really don't know. But don't enter WYC or WJC unless you can provide acceptable evidence of your age.

So it's ok to cheat? WTF?

trackcoach wrote:

However, it would not look like a freak show as in a junior athlete going out in the 800m in 48 seconds, world (senior) record pace and still manage to win.

Is this video on youtube or anywhere? I can't find it.

PUOSU wrote:

trackcoach wrote:

The age appropriate talented African high school and young athletes who never got a chance because because some 25 year old training in a pro group took their spot, not to mention all of the athletes from countries that do verify age and the integrity of junior records.

Can you give us some examples of 25-year-olds illegally taking a spot from a teenager? Thanks in advance.

Instead of giving you just one name, look up the results of the Kenyan Grade School National T&F Championships and tell me how many of those kids are on their junior national team. Being that Kenyans don't finish high school until age 19, their junior national team should be practically all of their high school champions. Look at the Jamaican Jr National team, they are basically the same kids from their high school championships. 99% of the Jamaican Jr national team is high school kids. This makes sense because just like Kenya, Jamaican kids don't finish high school until age 19. The U.S. junior national is split between high school and college freshmen because most of our college freshmen are still eligible for junior nationals.

Dennis Reynolds 2.0 wrote:

This gets so old and so racist so fast. I haven't seen Mary Cains birth certificate but she's a white girl so it's fine.

You have a bunch of accusations you can't prove in any way other than "uh they're really good for their age" So stupid

This has absolutely nothing to do with race because the East African are not the only ones who age cheat. In terms of Mary Cain, USATF does have a copy of her birth certificate on file and everyone one of our junior athletes. Furthermore, a 10 minute search of the U.S. Dept of Vital Statistics will give you the DOB, TOB, POB, Gender, Hospital and birth parents of every one of our junior athletes.

trackcoach wrote:

PUOSU wrote:

Can you give us some examples of 25-year-olds illegally taking a spot from a teenager? Thanks in advance.

Instead of giving you just one name, look up the results of the Kenyan Grade School National T&F Championships and tell me how many of those kids are on their junior national team.

Looks like all but one.

I am trying to have a serious conversation about a serious issue, but this thread is getting populated with nonsensical responses. Is their anyway the moderators can remove those post?

Have you considered that maybe Mary Cain just sucks, when actually competing with world class athletes her age? I mean it's not really gonna get different when she gets older. They still win regardless of age. Might as well just get used to losing.

And how does this disprove what I said?

It shows that some US birth certificates are not accurate.

You know what I got from that unproven rant? Sour grapes.

800 analyzer wrote:

trackcoach wrote:

Instead of giving you just one name, look up the results of the Kenyan Grade School National T&F Championships and tell me how many of those kids are on their junior national team.

Looks like all but one.

which one? looks like 100% to me.

You're ignoring a couple key issues:

1. Like has been said, the countries these "alleged" cheaters come from don't have the same system of birth certificates, making this less about cheating and more an issue about age uncertainty

2. Given the above systemic fact, do you have any proof that any of your accused overage athletes, are "cheating" intentionally? In other words can you show in any way shape or form that there is an intent to cheat?

3. In the absence of the above can you at least explicate on some of the incentives and benefits related to age cheating? What I'm asking is if you cannot prove it with evidence, then at least explain why we would expect age cheating to exist. Simply put, what does an athlete get after winning youth world championship?

Here's your serious conversation trackcoach. Now give me a serious response.

Shawn H wrote:

800 analyzer wrote:

Excellent, well thought out posts from trackcoach and ShawnH.

Typical lr drivel from most of the rest. I suspect actually about 5 of the moronic replies are all from the same person using different names.

Thanks, 800.

Sure. The subsequent posts are impersonators, this is only the 2nd post I made here.

heyyo wrote:

You're ignoring a couple key issues:

1. Like has been said, the countries these "alleged" cheaters come from don't have the same system of birth certificates, making this less about cheating and more an issue about age uncertainty

2. Given the above systemic fact, do you have any proof that any of your accused overage athletes, are "cheating" intentionally? In other words can you show in any way shape or form that there is an intent to cheat?

3. In the absence of the above can you at least explicate on some of the incentives and benefits related to age cheating? What I'm asking is if you cannot prove it with evidence, then at least explain why we would expect age cheating to exist. Simply put, what does an athlete get after winning youth world championship?

Here's your serious conversation trackcoach. Now give me a serious response.

I believe the claim isn't so much about World Youth Championships as it is about hyping new East African professionals based on their age. I'm an agent, I've signed this Kenyan kid who can run, say, 3:32.xx for 1500m. If I say he's 18, he's going to get a lot more attention from meet directors and the press than he will if I say he's 21.

At World Youth Champs themselves, I'm unimpressed with the "rampant age cheating" claim. I just went through all the running results from 2012, and there are exactly 4 runners in 2 events where the times suggest further investigation: Amos, Kitum and Melly in the men's 800m and Kipruto in the men's SC. I know there's been lots of discussion about Amos' age and I believe the consensus is that it's as given by IAAF. Kitum seems to have dropped off the map, which is sad whether he was really 17 when he won bronze in London or really 21. I've honestly never heard of Edwin Kiplagat Melly before today, but again the sad part is that he seems to have vanished. And I have no idea whether Conseslus Kipruto is really as young as reported, but he's clearly a very good SCer, whatever his true age.

I guess you could also investigate Faith Kipyegon, but her winning time in at World Youth in 2012 was nothing special, and her progression seems basically consistent with her reported age.

trackcoach wrote:

I am trying to have a serious conversation about a serious issue, but this thread is getting populated with nonsensical responses. Is their anyway the moderators can remove those post?

GTFO this is my thread now

The reason why these "kids" are vanishing is because in reality they're reaching pro runner retirement age (29, 30, whatever).

The age cheating is a big problem. Most obvious is that it cheats the legitimate competitors and robs them of accolades and recognition. I also find these competitions boring as a spectator. It's like watching a local high school meet with six DI runners mixed in. Obviously the (real) kids are going to get spanked.

Even the commentators realize what a joke this is. Listen to Cram and Ovett talk about the "16 year old" athletes in these races. They can barely contain their laughter.

The World Youth and World Junior record tables are completely fraudulent (well, so are most actual world records, but that's a whole separate issue).

Now I do believe that Kenya, Ethiopia, and other cheat-nations could very well legitimately have the best junior runners. I have no doubt there are some 18 year old East Africans capable of 1:46, 3:39, 13:30, etc. But these 1:44, 3:33:, sub-13 "17 year olds"? Come one.

What's especially devastating is to now see these age cheats trickling into the US as high school students. Footlocker CC was won FIVE CONSECUTIVE TIMES by age-cheats recently (2008 through 2012).

I still think you are mad that they are living your dream...