Track nerds: Was Michael Carter's 81'3.5" shot put in 1979 truly the "greatest high school performance ever?"

lease wrote:

Michael's series that day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMVgbAgDSzg

I wish it were possible to convey (to nonthrowers, or those who aren't throws fans) how many things Michael was doing right, especially on the last throw. His right leg was phenomenal.

In terms of absolute quality, I've got to go with Michael's performance with the 12# shot. In terms of competitive quality, I'd go with Mathias's OG decathlon win at age 17.

Technically Ted Meredith was a high school athlete in his Olympic/WR year, but he was 20 years old at the time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Meredith

Even though I'm not a field event expert, I always like to hear from fans about great field performances. Michael's throw is legendary.

Also, regarding Ted Meredith, a 1:51 800M in 1912 is sick! That's still a decent time for prep athletes, 20 years old or not.

jjjjjjjjj wrote:

Probably, Salazar wasn't too keen on Rupp, even his Rupp, breaking his best friend's high school record. But Rupp did run 28:15, I think, the next year to take the junior record.

You really think Salazar wouldn't have wanted his athlete to break Chapa's prep record if Rupp could've? I'm sure Chapa himself wanted the record broken,

elephino wrote:

Manchester wrote:

Isn't it accepted that the top shot put marks from the late 70's / early 80's are all doped? So, if a high schooler threw longer than all the WRs of that era and some 10 feet longer than anybody today, surely we would have to assume it's doped?

You do know the high school shot is a different weight, right?

I had suspected that but couldn't find any source.

I agree with you that Carter's shot record is the GOAT. Most of the second place performances on the all time HS list are (with the exception to Chapa's being 23 seconds) a few seconds or a few inches behind the record. The next performance behind Carter's is 4 FEET back!

Realism wrote:

GreatObserver wrote:

It is said that at the time of Micheal Carter's 80 ft throw series, that at that time in his life he was not lifting more than 280 on the bench.

this seems like the stuff of urban legend to me, of course bench isn't everything... but to throw so far requires an incredible level of both strength and technique (skinny distance runners take note that a 280 pound bench is not at all impressive for a great high school shot putter let alone the GOAT)

dude ended up being a starting nose tackle in the NFL, and from my personal experience it seems that for a HS athlete with decent but not stellar size & technique... 300+ pound bench ability is required to go 55-60+ ft .... somebody throwing 70ft+ would probably be a 350pd bencher at least

I agree with you, that's why its hard for me to understand how steroids entered the conversations about this record. i agree that 280 is probably an urban legend. However even at your suggestion of 350lb for 70ft+ Just about EVERY division I shotputter comes out of HS with a 350 bench nowadays. The closest anyone has gotten is 76 feet. Including 6 years ago when there were 4 guys at 74+. every event has a skill level...you cant just break it down to whose on more steroids.

Realism wrote:

GoldenMiles wrote:

1) Roy Martin's insane 20.13 (both of them) and Darrell Robinson's almost more impressive 44.69 (only HSer EVER under 45 seconds, and he's WELL under) are both about 30 years old or so.

Tyreek Hill (currently running track & playing FB for Oklahoma State) ran wind-legal 20.14 in 2012

as for the other records...

while the steeple/10K/marathon records are old... if they were regularly contested (and trained for) by elite HSers those records would be no more with the possible exception of Chapas 28:32 10k. (brutal and ultra high-mileage training regimen that probably won't be replicated with success ever again)

boys 4x400 by Hawthorne is far and away the best relay record including Webbs DMR... 3:07.4 is an average of 46.85 per leg

imo, Carters 81-3 shot put record is the individual GOAT

for some perspective... according to milesplit the #1 boys shot put in the nation this season is 68-10.5

Good post. I'm interested in hearing more about Chapa's training/story. I've never known much about him, other than that he had a random-ass 28:32 10,000M high school record. That's faster than a lot of college kids. Plus I know he broke 14.

46.XX per leg is sick. I had forgotten about Webb's DMR. They still have the HS national record? That's cool.

20.14 is insane. Can't believe I didn't hear more about that. Hopefully he's doing well in college track. Those are almost always football guys. Shame more don't run pro track.

Good thread.

I believe the answer to the original question posed by the op is yes. Or at least that seems to be the consensus.

Interestingly, being from texas (albeit not a field events guy), Roy Martin has probably been brought up the most to me by coaches who were around at that time. Apparently it was like everyone else was standing still (pardon the cliche). I'm sure it seems greater as time passes and memories fade.

At my age, a name that comes to mind and probably the best I ever personally witnessed was obea Moore. However, it's irrelevant because there wasn't a single performance. It was more his range across multiple events that belongs in "greatest ever" in hs type discussions. He was great enough where his name needs to be "bumped" every once in a while, even 20 yrs later.

In 1970, Caroline Walker set the world record for the women's marathon while still a junior in high school.

Michael Carter, Jim Ryun, Alan Webb, Mary Cain never set world records in high school. I believe Lindgren may have tied the 10000m WR while in high school, although he lost the race.

Chapa's record is amazing but they didn't want it or they would have taken it :) Rudy's kid Joaquim trained in the Salazar hs group before and with Galen.

Alberto is weird with his Oregon thing, Galen never took a shot a Pre's records at Hayward, he ran 8:14 to win as a junior and as a senior he just kicked to win the 3k. Conditions were pretty good pollen count was pretty low that I remember.

I saw the Demps race and he was a man among boys it was at the trials.

I also saw the HS old Jav record Skipper

The crouser national records in the Disc and Jav

Yes but this is only after women were allowed to run anything over 400m in competition after 1928. And quite a ways before women began experimentation with PED's while impressive she did it that young. Not that impressive considering how fledgling women's athletics were at the time.

Good thread wrote:

At my age, a name that comes to mind and probably the best I ever personally witnessed was obea Moore. However, it's irrelevant because there wasn't a single performance. It was more his range across multiple events that belongs in "greatest ever" in hs type discussions. He was great enough where his name needs to be "bumped" every once in a while, even 20 yrs later.

Image what would happen to the LRC boards is HS sophomore ran:

200m in 20.77

400m in 45.13

800m in 1:49.16

Wow, wow, wow ... maybe a few 1000 post threads . . .

Ryun's 3:55 on dirt is by far the best record

His 3:58 solo on dirt is by far the second best record.

Lindgren 8:40 on boards is better than Webb, Carter or Cain.

Chapa is inferior to Webb, but not by much.

3:55.3 wrote:

For dudes,

400m 44.69 since 1982, 32 years

Mile 3:58.3 since 1965, 49 years (HS Only competition)

3k Steeple 8:50.1 since 1979, 35 years

10k 28:32.7 since 1976, 38 years

Marathon 2:23 since 1973, 41 years

Triple Jump 52-10 since 1980, 34 years

For ladies,

Long jump 22-3 since 1976, 38 years

Why are you limiting the mile to HS only competition, but not the other events? It's not like the 44.69 or the marathon were HS only.

GoldenMiles wrote:

I'm also curious what the guys could get, as Rupp was not able to really come close to Chapa's record.

I don't think Rupp was able to break 29.

What?

fan of US distance running wrote:Snell raced Keino in Tokyo and beat him

keino was a raw novice in '64

snell didn't hang around to get crushed in '68 when keino was in career peak shape

Obea Moore: 45.14 (WYB) as a sophomore.

LetsRun.com wrote:We are working on our weekly recap and going through the homepages form last week.

There was an article on the Carters in the Sac Bee -

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/06/23/6506129/michelle-carter-carries-on-the.html#storylink=cpy

- that talked about Michael's heave of 81-3.5 from 1979. Track announcer Bob Jarvis said: “What Carter did at the GWI, I consider the greatest high school performance ever. It’s not even close.”

Now knowing a lot about field events, is Carter's mark the greatest mark in any HS event in history?

Answer that and then rank the top 5 HS boys marks in history. Where does Alan Webb's 3:53 rank?

His throw ranks as best performance ever by a mile

I'm pretty sure of this estimate :

He used 12lb ball & seniors use 16lb

The conversion shoud be

ratio of masses ^ (1/3)

-> 24.77 * (12/16)^(1/3) =

22.51m

That's helluva lot better than senior WR !!!

In '79 this was only 22.15 by Udo

Mike's intrinsic effort wasn't beaten until '85 when Ulf threw 22.62m

No HS kid has had an intrinsic performance better than senior WR other than Mike

I may be going too far back for most and referencing an event that doesn't happen on the track (which around here limits things even more) but I would throw some field event love to Barb Freidrichs (Manasquan, NJ) in the javelin.

When Barb threw 198'8" in 1967 (a time when her area of NJ had almost no opportunities for girls to compete in track & field), it was the national high school record, the US junior record, (I believe) the world junior record, and less than two meters off of the world record set by a Soviet athlete in the '64 Olympics.

It took a redesign of the women's javelin in 1999 for someone other than Barb to hold the high school record.

Wow... I didn't know, or had forgotten, that Moore ran 45.1 as a hs soph. That really does belong in the greatest hs performance discussion after all.

Obviously, he was legendary in high school, but I recall him more from summer track than anything. He had most of the records ranging from 200-800m for all the different age divisions and was very talked about across the country. He was a man among boys even at the national championship-type meets (dominated the 400m and caught people from WAY behind in the 4x4). He would really electrify the crowds, too. It was pretty amazing at the time. Clearly, based on his post-hs career, he was a little too good too soon.