How did the USA make such a leap in distance running?

Surprise! wrote:

High school performances have skyrocketed during this same period. Do you think drugs are responsible for those as well?

Look at the top ten high school all-time lists for distance events. Now look at the top ten Senior all-time lists. Hardly any pre-2008 marks remain in the Senior division. Meanwhile their are still many marks from past decades in the high school division.

blue sky wrote:

Surprise! wrote:

High school performances have skyrocketed during this same period. Do you think drugs are responsible for those as well?

Look at the top ten high school all-time lists for distance events. Now look at the top ten Senior all-time lists. Hardly any pre-2008 marks remain in the Senior division. Meanwhile their are still many marks from past decades in the high school division.

You should probably look deeper the younger you go, because less and less athletes make it through to the top.

For example: What % of the Top 100 American HS athletes have been in the last ~10-15 years? What % of the Top 50 American NCAA athletes have been in the last ~5-10 years? What % of the Top 10 American Professional athletes have been in the last ~5 years?

what medals do we have in the 5k?

Ohio guy wrote:

dkny64 wrote:

There's a lot of evidence that Ryun, Shorter, Rodgers and Pre doped? More info, please.

Sorry, my brain stopped at the word "of" without the remaining part of the sentence. Poor comprehension on my part.

I believe there is enough circumstantial evidence to hang a black cloud over current groups like NOP. Sorry I misread your point.

No worries + I can understand your thoughts about NOP [although I'm not entirely convinced on the circumstantial evidence front myself.]

Awkward question [particularly since I'm also on Ohio guy - few years older and massively slower than Kennedy; grew up one Columbus suburb over]: do you think Kennedy was clean?

Once upon a time I wouldn't have even thought to question that, but given that there are quite a number of people on this board who think that all the great East Africans of the mid 1990s were doping, and given that Kennedy is very proud of having trained with Komen, umm, you know, the question arises [for me, anyway.]

dkny64 wrote:

Awkward question [particularly since I'm also on Ohio guy - few years older and massively slower than Kennedy; grew up one Columbus suburb over]: do you think Kennedy was clean?

Once upon a time I wouldn't have even thought to question that, but given that there are quite a number of people on this board who think that all the great East Africans of the mid 1990s were doping, and given that Kennedy is very proud of having trained with Komen, umm, you know, the question arises [for me, anyway.]

A Worthington guy?

Wow! I have never even contemplated this, probably because he was a local guy and I watched him for years. I want to think he was enormously talented based upon his 14:50/4:05 HS times on 30-35 mpw and not looking much like a runner. He was actually sort of pudgy for a runner with little muscle definition. To look like he did and run those times made me think he had tremendous talent.

I think the way Sam Bell trained him was genius. He gradually trained him as a 5K runner, but kept racing him as a miler as long as possible even though he did not have national/world level milers finishing speed. That aside, he did win NCAA as a frosh. Sam built his mileage very deliberately as well. All that said, I will have to do some more thinking and research toward your question. I do have to admonish you for even putting this idea in my brain.

Internet + Numerous Pro Training Groups

Surprise! wrote:

The Asker wrote:

In light of Mo Trafeh's announcement, and questioning of who else might be dirty, I wonder if we can really believe that so many US runners have made such a huge leap in such a short period of time.

High school performances have skyrocketed during this same period. Do you think drugs are responsible for those as well?

That's right, high school kids would never do drugs.

I hear you and I have to say I didn't the beginnings of think this way until I started hanging out on this web site, but now my base line is that either you think Daniel "7:20" Komen was clean, or you think Bob "sub 13" Kennedy was dirty. I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I do have a strong opinion that you have to put them both on one side or the other.

p.s. whatever one thinks about Kennedy's times as a pro, his times as a HSer and as a college freshman simply blow my mind.

I think Americans have caught up to the science of legal cheating. Knowing the where the line is on Hematocrit levels or TE ratios.

drug testing has wiped the moroccans and the spanish dopers off the map

the biological passport has slowed down the east african dopers

microdosing epo is less effective on the track than it is for the marathon

better drug testing has allowed Americans to run faster than ever. Makes sense to me.

drugs

Not to dismiss the improved depth in American distance running over recent years, but an often ignored event in those "terrible" 90s is the steeple crew. Through the 90s, the US was consistently competitive here (Croghan in particular…also Davis and Diemer) with a fair amount of depth.

In the 2000 Olympic Trials, I believe 9 or 10 of the 12 men in the finals hit the Olympic A standard in the PRELIMS at the Trials. Compare that to the prelims a couple of nights ago at USATFs (I understand this year could be off since to WC or Olympics). No comparison.