Does Komen have the strongest 1500/mile, 3000/2 mile, 5k times?

Wtfunny wrote:

Geb burned him out? Geb beat him one time, for a career 1:1 record

Haile Gebrselassie has beaten Daniel Komen at least 5 times.

said88 wrote:

Wtfunny wrote:

Geb burned him out? Geb beat him one time, for a career 1:1 record

Haile Gebrselassie has beaten Daniel Komen at least 5 times.

aouita was a doping cheat

the goat when it's said & done wrote:

3:29.46 (1500)

7:20.67 (3k)

12:39.74

His 15 is slower than ElGs but his 5k is substantially faster. His 5k is slower than Geb and Bekele but his 15 and 3ks are faster. Is he the best middle distance runner of all time?

It's difficult to decide which athlete has the best combination of times over 1500m, 3000m and 5000m.

Daniel Komen and Hicham El Guerouj are the two candidates.

Komen: 3:29,46 - 7:20,67 - 12:39,74

El Gu: 3:26,00 - 7:23,09 - 12:50,24

I think the 3:26,00 is sligthly "better" than the 12:39,74 and for the 1500m and 5000m combo I still would vote for El Guerrouj. But it's close. So Komen's 7:20,67 makes the decision for him I would say.

These two are little bit ahead of the others. Next should be Gebrselassie, Bekele and Saidi-Sief.

said88 wrote:

And the sentence about his 10000m is just laughable. At his first (and as it happened unfortunately only) try over 10000m he became the 6th fastes performer in historty, in the by far best debut at the time (a clear indication that he couldn't handle the distance). In a race in which he was badly spiked early be Alberto Cova. In a race where he ran very big parts between lane 1 and 2, easily some 60 (probably more) meters extra. He definitely was capable to break the WR on that day (which was 27:13,81), which he missed by 12,3s, blah blah blah, rant rant rant

The 1980's 10000m performances have been proven soft. Who cares if Aouita did pretty good for that time - compared to his 5000m PR, his 10000 is now nothing. It shows now, even if it didn't then, that he was not cut out for the longer distances. Not like, for example, Rupp, who has the same 5000 PR but whose 10,000 is over 40 seconds faster.

Now, as then, sub 13 is a landmark of top elite status. But sub 27:30 is not. The equivalent is now sub 27, well out of Aouita's range.

Choge has already run sub-13 four times and sub-13:10 thirteen times. He is 5 seconds faster than Aouita over 5000. He is a lock for sub-27. But his title of best overall mid-d/distance runner is already indisputable.

Good to see what you think about facts. (rant rant rant???)

Also good to see what some bias against someone can produce: conclusions totally opposite of reality.

Nobody has said that Aouita's 10000m PB is on a par with his other PBs. But this was not the point at all. Isn't it funny that your conclusion "he couldn't handle the distance" really is the total contrary of my (and I'm pretty sure anybodys who looks little bit seriously on the facts) conclusion?

Sub 27 was well out of Aouita's range? Aha. Maybe you can just explain that? He has run a time worth around 27:15 in his DEBUT at the distance (this is a pure fact, since - as I already have told you - he has run half of the race very wide (I have the full race on tape) and has to cover easily some 60 (probably more) meters extra). If your conclusion is that sub 27 was "well out of his range" - well, that's up to you. (can't say which impact it had that he was running with a bloody shoe from early on, probably not just a positive one).

Aouita originally was a middle distance runner who later also became the by far best 5000m runner of his generation. And 1986 in Oslo he proved (!) that he also could handle the 10000m distance. In any case it would not have become his best distance (also because running continously a steady pace was not according to his mentality, he was impulsive). But your conlusions from the facts we know (sub 27 well out of his range) are - as already said - laughable.

Which time of him would not have clearly shown that "he couldn't handle the distance"?. 27:00? Or 26:50? In 1986. In his debut.

Lasse Viren and Miruts Yifter probably also couldn't handle the distance.

said88 wrote:

Wtfunny wrote:

Geb burned him out? Geb beat him one time, for a career 1:1 record

Haile Gebrselassie has beaten Daniel Komen at least 5 times.

Really? When? My recollection was the 2 Zurich races, in 1996 and 1997. They may have raced in '95 though. What were the races?

Thanks

slush headquarters wrote:

The 5k is considered mid distance on the elite level. It's obviously at the upper end of mid D, but it is in that group nonetheless.

Having said that, Komen has the upper hand on a TIME basis. El G certainly has the medals, so he has the upper hand on the PERFORMANCE basis. Komens career was over and done with very quickly.

I kind of hope the same thing doesn't happen to Rudisha.....a once in a lifetime flash in the pan talent who had the track and field world by the honches and threw it all away.

No, the classic middle distances are 800 up to 1 mile.

5 & 10k are both considered distance events. 3000 m kind of falls in 'No man's land' in between.

So if you're talking about 1500 to 5000m, then you're crossing over 2 groups of events and this shouldn't be classed as 'middle distance' but rather just referred to as the best 1500 to 5000m runner or perhaps, "Long middle distance".

Just like when you are comparing 400 and 800 times you wouldn't say that Juantorena was the best 'sprinter' ever, just because the 400m is considered a sprint event! You'd simply say he was the best 400- 800 runner ever.

How does Rupp's 800m PR match up with Aouita's?

Aouita had no competition at the 5000m and moved down because he was bored with the event. In the 80s, a 5000m time under 13:20 was a solid effort (to make the top 10 all time required about 13:07 if I recall). Who would have rabbitted Aouita to a sub 27?

The first man under 27, Yobes Ondieki, was dominated by Aouita during that era.

You must be too young to know how much of a force Aouita was in middle distances.

el-g is a no brainer for best. 800-5000m.

you have to put in the 2k distance to figure proper.

no doubt el-g could run an 800m as fast as steve cram, they had the same finishing speed, the long wind up, except el-g went for home after a FASTER pace. we're talking 142 low.

that said, nobody but nobody could touch komen at 3k on his best day. his 3k WR of 720 was run after a tiring sequence of races even. he was really worth an absolutely insane 716 at peak.

El G has no form at all over 800 or even 1000m. There is also little evidence to even suggest he was 'hypothetically' as fast as cram over 800. The only hint of EL G's 400 speed is what his coach said he could do in training, which was 48 and bits. I don't think EL G would have been as fast as Cram over 2 laps. But this is a moot point as El G did nothing over 800m and had an official Pb of 1:47. Hypothetical performances don't count if you're going to claim he was the best ever over 800 to 5k.

That would be (in the real world) Aouita by a long way, who actually DID something over 800m ~ 1:43 and Olympic bronze.

Wtfunny wrote:

said88 wrote:

Haile Gebrselassie has beaten Daniel Komen at least 5 times.

Really? When? My recollection was the 2 Zurich races, in 1996 and 1997. They may have raced in '95 though. What were the races?

Thanks

1995: Zürich and Berlin over 5000m; Grand Prix Final over 3000m

1996: Sevilla 10km XC

1997; Zürich over 5000m

For sure Komen in 1995 was not at the same level which he has had from 1996 to early 1998 and 10km XC definitely was not his best event...

Maybe it should be added that Komen decided to concentrate more on the 1500m in 1998 (this definitely was a consequence of his defeat by Gebrselassie in Zürich in '97 when he must have realised that - regardless how good he was - Geb would just hang on to him and win with his much superior finishing qualities). Unfortunately for Komen in 1998 El Guerrouj got to his full potential...

It was the begin of the (fast) decline of Daniel Komen.

What an unbelievable talent he was. Maybe the greatest which we have seen so far in middle/distance running.

I agree that Zurich in 97 was a big blow to Komen's confidence. Geb really went by him like he was standing still en route to setting the world record. It was incredible to see Geb's surge off a world record pace. I don't think Komen thought he could beat Geb after that. The year before in Zurich Komen handily beat Geb but Geb had come off a very tough 10,000 at the Atlanta Olympics and Komen was well rested having not made the Kenyan team.

Komen's 5000 at the '97 Athen's world champs was incredible. Just a few days before Zurich so he may have been more tired than Geb who had about 10 days of rest between the Athen's 10,000 and the Zurich 5000. Komen demolished a completely stacked field in Athens and ran his last 3200 in 8:07!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPtdSo6Mup4

Perhaps there's been a more dominating championship mid/distance performance but I can't think of any right now.

said88 wrote:

Maybe it should be added that Komen decided to concentrate more on the 1500m in 1998 (this definitely was a consequence of his defeat by Gebrselassie in Zürich in '97 when he must have realised that - regardless how good he was - Geb would just hang on to him and win with his much superior finishing qualities). Unfortunately for Komen in 1998 El Guerrouj got to his full potential...

It was the begin of the (fast) decline of Daniel Komen.

What an unbelievable talent he was. Maybe the greatest which we have seen so far in middle/distance running.

I disagree that Komen's confidence against Geb was destroyed after that one race. Komen responded by racing the 5000m almost immediately after the Zurich run and destroyed Geb's WR. Komen clearly stayed in good 5000m shape because she then destroyed Geb's indoor 5000m WR in early '98, as well. And if he was so easily out off, he wouldn't have continued to run the 1500m against El G, who he never beat.

It was just as plausible that Komen started running 1500m to work on his speed after realizing he couldn't outkicked Geb. The 97 Zurich race simply balanced the record after 96. The "my feet hurt" claim by Geb was likely nonsense. He ran an incredibly fast 5000m and had nothing left at the end. He was on WR pave with 200m to go, then said his feet hurt too much because he lost. Did Tergat make that same complaint? Anyone else from the Atl 10000m?

Thanks for the info on the other races Geb/Komen. I wasn't thinking about XC, and was unaware of the Berlin run in 95.

sub 1:45 - not close to world class (+4 off WR)sub 3:30 - world class (+4 off WR) sub 7:30 - world class (+10 off WR)sub 13 - close to world class (+23 off WR)

Bad Wigins wrote:

Not Komen, not H. el GH, not Bekele, not Geb, not none of them could do

sub 1:45

sub 3:30

sub 7:30 and

sub 13

Other than confessed doper Aouita, the only man ever to do it is Augustine Choge, who is still only 27 years old.

The real comparison here is sub 1:43, sub 3:30, sub 7:30 and sub 12:50 which I believe no one has done. Take sub 1:43 out of the problem and all you have is Daniel Komen. El G does have the credit of an Olympic 5000m gold medal though.

Wtfunny wrote:

The "my feet hurt" claim by Geb was likely nonsense. He ran an incredibly fast 5000m and had nothing left at the end. He was on WR pave with 200m to go, then said his feet hurt too much because he lost. Did Tergat make that same complaint? Anyone else from the Atl 10000m?

I'm pretty sure it was not nonsense. Looking on the race and on his victory lap it seems clear to me that he has had problems. But for sure we will never know this exactly.

tripstop wrote:

Komen's 5000 at the '97 Athen's world champs was incredible. Just a few days before Zurich so he may have been more tired than Geb who had about 10 days of rest between the Athen's 10,000 and the Zurich 5000. Komen demolished a completely stacked field in Athens and ran his last 3200 in 8:07!

Perhaps there's been a more dominating championship mid/distance performance but I can't think of any right now.

Even faster! More like 8:08 for the last 2 Miles (3218,68m)! Definitely faster than Moses Kiptanui's World Best for the distance of 8:09,01 from as late as 1994.

I also can't remember any other championship mid/distance performance like that. Maybe we have to go back to Vladimir Kuts in Melbourne in 1956...

said88 wrote:

tripstop wrote:

Komen's 5000 at the '97 Athen's world champs was incredible. Just a few days before Zurich so he may have been more tired than Geb who had about 10 days of rest between the Athen's 10,000 and the Zurich 5000. Komen demolished a completely stacked field in Athens and ran his last 3200 in 8:07!

Perhaps there's been a more dominating championship mid/distance performance but I can't think of any right now.

Even faster! More like 8:08 for the last 2 Miles (3218,68m)! Definitely faster than Moses Kiptanui's World Best for the distance of 8:09,01 from as late as 1994.

I also can't remember any other championship mid/distance performance like that. Maybe we have to go back to Vladimir Kuts in Melbourne in 1956...

Kenenisa Bekele closing the WC 10000 in 12:57.

[quote]ISBN wrote:

El G has no form at all over 800 or even 1000m. There is also little evidence to even suggest he was 'hypothetically' as fast as cram over 800. The only hint of EL G's 400 speed is what his coach said he could do in training, which was 48 and bits. I don't think EL G would have been as fast as Cram over 2 laps. But this is a moot point as El G did nothing over 800m and had an official Pb of 1:47. Hypothetical performances don't count if you're going to claim he was the best ever over 800 to 5k.

That would be (in the real world) Aouita by a long way, who actually DID something over 800m ~ 1:43 and Olympic bronze.[/quote

I know there's the belief by many that Aouita used PEDs, but his range in competition was unmatched. He was ranked #1 in world from 800 to 10000m! Of course we can talk about his completion but I don't think much weight should be put on that. That's what he actully did according to the record. Who else pulled that off?