Sub 15 5k, post grad training

Great advice. Another follow on question. Going from the framework that each week of training can consist of one A-effort workout, one B and possibly one C, where A is quite hard, how do you treat these workouts and how does that change over time?

When you're doing them in weeks t-18 through t-13, are they fairly light workouts and then t-12 through up to the final weeks are they increasing in intensity?

Do you dial back the intensity in the last two weeks?

Then digging more into the intensity of these generally, how much volume at 5k pace ish are you doing? And then another redundant question, do you increase that volume over time to up to say 4-5 miles at 5k pace?

Sorry for the overflow of questions. I did not race in college so I don't have a ton of exposure as to what a training program should actually look like and how it progresses through the year.

I'll chime in.

I'm way post college (34), but didn't run in college. Sub 15 is an A++ for this year, 1515 is probably more reasonable.

I've been running 55-60 miles/week for the past 2 years with the following PRS

3k 858

5k 1549

10k 3255

HM 113:02

Today's workout:

3 miles at HM effort (1622), 600 meters of jogging (3:00), 1 mile at 5k pace (456)

I've got a ways to go, but I'm interested in everyone's workout/progress. Hopefully we can all benefit.

I have one semi related question:

What do you think you can take off per kilometre for a track 5000 against a road 5k? I was thinking around 5 seconds for a 15/16 minute 5k on a slightly hilly course.

Graduated 27 years ago lol

Yesterday

4 mile tempo @ 5:20 pace (training shoes) Trail

5 min jog

Mile 4:45 (racing flats) Road

To the OP, be sure to hydrate, hydrate, hydrate down there in the Texas heat. You might want to add some longer intervals (2k or 2 miles) to your training. With your mid-distance squad background you should have plenty of speed, longer intervals will help you add some more strength

Just remember to run calm, cool, and relaxed. The worst thing you can do is try too hard.

4 mile race today 20:48.

(5:14, 5:12, 5:08, 5:13)

Felt 2Calm 2Relaxed.

But really, felt good. I've never run a 4 mile race before so I don't have much to compare it to. But it seem like another step in the right direction

Not a great week of training last week.

Tuesday: Goal 4-5x1k on 6 min cycle (goal 3:05)

3:03, 3:08, 3:08, 3:11

Thursday: 3 mile tempo

5:24, 5:30, 5:34

Saturday: 80 long run (actually felt good)

Neither workout was awful but neither was what I was hoping for. The tempo was worse but it was on a track with VERY strong headwinds on the homestretch.

I felt sick Sunday and decided to take off Monday as well.

Plan is to do pickups today instead of a track workout to play it safe with my health. Then a 5 mile tempo Thursday

Seem like a smart plan?

Next race is tentatively a 5k April 21

Based on your workouts it looks like you may be starting out too hard. If you can't hold pace during a tempo you started out too hard. Why not start at 5:34 and then work down? For the 1000s why not start at roughly 3:12 and work down? It usually takes a mile or so in a tempo or the first repeat in a workout to get the system to adjust. I did 8x1000 with 200 jog rest this week and started at 3:18 and worked down to 3:08. The 3:08 felt just as hard as the 3:18. You should finish workouts feeling fast, strong, with good form, and have the feeling you could go a few more reps.

Dont Strain wrote:

Based on your workouts it looks like you may be starting out too hard. If you can't hold pace during a tempo you started out too hard. Why not start at 5:34 and then work down? For the 1000s why not start at roughly 3:12 and work down? It usually takes a mile or so in a tempo or the first repeat in a workout to get the system to adjust. I did 8x1000 with 200 jog rest this week and started at 3:18 and worked down to 3:08. The 3:08 felt just as hard as the 3:18. You should finish workouts feeling fast, strong, with good form, and have the feeling you could go a few more reps.

Well, maybe on another day he wouldn't have slowed down, so it was reasonable to start as fast as he did. No way for me to know but just a hypothesis. Personally, I know on the first part of any workout whether it's going to end poorly or not (almost always) so I can adjust the paces early.

Anyway, I'd like to get some opinions from you guys. Sub-15 is not in the cards for me in 2015, but 2016 could be another story.

little background about me:

I ran 15:46 2 years ago, and last year I was in about 15:35 shape but mentally something was up so I only ran 15:53. Ran a 15:43 road 5k last thanksgiving.

So far this season I ran 15:55 opener, then 15:31, then 15:28. I'm probably in 15:20-15:25 shape on a perfect day. But my question is about next year.

How should I go about training in the next 10 months to prep for a 15:00ish 5k next march?

I don't have particularly good speed nor endurance. My PRs don't tell the story at all but I'd guess I can run about 4:10 in a 1500, and no faster than 55 in a 400. I'm probably in 32:20s 10k shape, and again, 15:20s 5k shape.

My current training focuses on mileage throughout the year without any really ball-busting workouts at any point in the year (a la "train, don't strain" or "train smarter, not harder". I averaged 65 mpw in both 2013 and 2014, and so far in 2015 I'm averaging about 70 and I plan to get that up to 75 by the end of the year.

Options:

1. Just base train in the summer, few structured workouts but decent pace most days (6:40-7:00 easy runs, 80-90 mpw). In the fall train for a full xc season from October til December. Then build up again for spring track focusing on the 5000m in March.

2. Work on my speed in the summer while still hitting 80+ mpw. Do things like hill sprints, hard strides or 200s regularly. Then run full xc season, then move onto track season and focus on 1500/5000 but primarily on 5000.

3. Work on endurance this summer, 80+ mpw and hard long runs, 10-12mi tempos, etc. Do a few races in the summer, maybe a half marathon. Then do a shorter xc season before switching gears towards a December marathon, attempting to run 2:30-2:34. take a break, then train for track and hope my endurance can carry me in the 5000.

4. other

thanks. hopefully some of you have been in a similar situation and can tell me what worked/didn't work.

Reed, do you do strength exercises year round? I'm talking 6 days a week. Does your groin area get unusually sore after hard workout/race (sign of muscle weakness) ? Do you gradually bring down mileage in racing season? Strength is the key. Option #3 but like this: gradual mileage built around two main runs. Treadmill 5 mi. in three segments 2%,3%,4% rest at 1% @ 7:30 pace to start. Pace comes down gradually. Long run 12,14,16, 14,16,18 14,16,18 16,18,20 20 20 or 18,18,18. 5 miles in the middle of every long run, starting at 6:00 min. pace and working down to 5:45/5:40 .

Easy mileage at 145/150 HR + 6 days a week of exercises. A race or two can be worked in if you like. This should leave you very strong at end of base period. Then you plan what direction from there. You should be able to run good 1/2 marathon and 5 k just off of base. Don't dismiss the treadmill workout, it will produce good results.

Reed, you are faster than me but I have a couple comments for you. First, you can estimate the shape you are in all you want, but your PR is your PR. I have seen the "recaps" of your last couple of races and you finished strong, which is great. But maybe just go out harder and hang on next time. You may surprise yourself and actually be able to run quite a bit faster than you think--you could be placing limits on yourself mentally. Go out at 15:10-20 pace and see how it goes, if you blow up, you blow up.

Regardless, you have improved a lot with what you are doing, so why do you need to make big changes? Just keep going with what is working for you and slowly progress the mileage and the workouts.

Finally, a summer base can include both hill sprints (long rest, not too taxing) working on speed and long tempos for strength. In fact, a good program should have both.

I think Reed falls into the mid-level talent guys and has to train a little differently than guys that run 24 min 8k and 14:30 5k. He is looking to change this up because his current training is not achieving his goals. He is not blessed with blazing speed. Everyone can get stronger! Super long tempo,for a guy at 80 mi. week level, would have to be pretty slow. You can get better results by tweaking your long run, think about it. Think about incline running on treadmill and what it teaches your aerobic system. You continually go up hill 2%,3%4% at same pace (teaches you hold pace) you learn to recover at lesser incline, but still uphill. Treadmill will make you mentally tough. Reed needs to get stronger.

i appreciate the responses so far. and yes peekay, in my next 5k in 4 weeks i plan to run faster early on, probably 73mids for as long as possible.

and i only estimated some things because my actual mid-d PRs are as follows (but are irrelevant) 59 400, 2:16 800, 4:23 1500, 4:48 mile, 9:49 2mi, 33:11 10k.

obviously the 400-mile don't mean anything, i never race those distances and those are all from workouts.

for what it's worth, i don't have access to a treadmill without buying a gym membership. also, your description of why the treadmill workout will help me is confusing. i understand hill repeats and hill runs but why the treadmill? have you personally done these treadmill workouts?

also somebody asked about strength training. i do none.

Reed, the treadmill is unique in that you can preform workouts that you would be hard pressed to duplicate in a natural setting. Where could you find a incline that goes 2,3,4% and back down to 0 or 2% without going down hill. So the treadmill can create stresses that build strength. When you are running on natural terrain you will slow on inclines and speedup on declines. On a treadmill you can maintain a constant pace, which builds physical and mental toughness. Treadmills are not for everybody. I think they are valuable tool in training. And yes I have used the treadmill for training.

My son transferred to Big 12 school this year, but ran for a top college XC program his Fresh/Soph years. Strength/endurance is his weakness. He has good speed, but struggles w/8 k 10 k distance. He has been working on weights and body weight exercises and it seems to be paying off. Nothing to crazy, but staying consistent builds the type of strength you need to keep pushing good pace. You are exactly the type of runner I think I could help assist with training. But I think you like trying to figure out training and that is a fun challenge for you. I am definitely willing to discuss and share what I have learned, I like trying to figure out training too.

My recent training:

mileage has been hovering between 60-70 per week.

Wednesday 4/1: 12 x 800 at 5:17 pace with 1:30 recovery

Friday 4/3: hour run with 10x100m at the end

Sunday 4/5: Easy long / 15 miles at 7:00 pace

Tuesday 4/7: 6x800 in 2:25 with 400m recovery. This was the first workout at or near 3k/5k pace. Aerobically felt okay, but the legs aren't there at these paces yet.

Reed- I honestly think you have much more in the tank. I've been seeing your weekly posts in the training forum and like what the others have said I think going out a bit faster may help. It's very unpredictable but you have nothing to lose. I'd say aim for a 72-73 first lap. If you have others to pace with then that's great but race for yourself. You have been improving with what you're doing so it's a bit tough to deny with what's working. Maybe incorporating other things into what you're doing but I wouldn't change what you're doing now. You'll get that sub 15 with time!

Reed- Also, if you do plan on increasing your mileage for next season I don't think going from 70 to 75 is going to be much of a difference. This is just my opinion but if you really want to make a change in mileage then getting up to 80-85 might not be a bad idea. Again, just my opinion if you decide to change it up.

My junior year in college I was only a 15:46 guy running roughly 75 miles per week then I decided to make a change. I got my mileage up to 85 the and ended up running 15:18. Then I increased it to 95 and i dropped a 14:50. The only issue with mileage is staying healthy. So, if you steadily increase it to 80-85 with recovery weeks then you may surprise yourself. But remember what I said above, what you're doing now is working so it's hard not to do just that.

Not getting any younger wrote:

My recent training:

mileage has been hovering between 60-70 per week.

Wednesday 4/1: 12 x 800 at 5:17 pace with 1:30 recovery

Friday 4/3: hour run with 10x100m at the end

Sunday 4/5: Easy long / 15 miles at 7:00 pace

Tuesday 4/7: 6x800 in 2:25 with 400m recovery. This was the first workout at or near 3k/5k pace. Aerobically felt okay, but the legs aren't there at these paces yet.

You sound like you are in similar shape to me... maybe a little bit better.

Have you had any recent races? Any coming up?

If you up your mileage and train hard, you'll probably at least come close to hitting your goal. Training hard will make you faster. Simple science.