Why does everyone consider El G a doper but not Kiprop?

I remember something about those frozen samples. Didn't the French originally nail Lance on his frozen samples but then Lance's lawyers somehow managed to fudge that testing previously frozen samples was not valid?

What about those 17 endurance athletes who had their frozen samples test positive, why did we never get to hear who they were?:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5087206

Horst Girth wrote:

What ever happened to the (frozen) samples taken at the 2004 Olympics? I half recall hearing they were ultimately thrown out, or the testing period expired, something like that. So it'd be a moot point.

When I first heard about these frozen samples, my thought was that El G might be in danger of losing his two golds.

Of course, Lagat's silver might come under scrutiny too.

Anyone have info on this?

The IOC weren't even going to retest the frozen samples. They did so only after journalists kept bringing it up. And they didn't even end up testing all the samples. What a joke.

I agree with this ^. I think Renato once wrote on a thread that a good sign of Doping is inconsistency in their performances. Doping usually allows you to perform a little more out of your body's limits for a short period of time.. but it eventually catches up to you. I would be much more suspicious if a runner usually runs 3:39+ and suddenly dominates for 2 weeks and runs sub 3:32 twice or 3 times and is never able to reproduce that result ever again.

beanpatch7 wrote:

I agree with this ^. I think Renato once wrote on a thread that a good sign of Doping is inconsistency in their performances. Doping usually allows you to perform a little more out of your body's limits for a short period of time.. but it eventually catches up to you. I would be much more suspicious if a runner usually runs 3:39+ and suddenly dominates for 2 weeks and runs sub 3:32 twice or 3 times and is never able to reproduce that result ever again.

the exact opposite is true (if lax testing allows)

now they are only inconsistent because of testing and the biological passport

they would be as consistent as el guerrouj and lance otherwise

look whats happening to mackloufi

he's having to hide out all over the place and cant compete on a regular basis at peak levels due to the testing and passport plus the fact that he's being targetted

Your right noone said this wrote:

He his a freak tho. He's tall and extremely long and thin and can really gobble up real estate with his stride.

If you watch the finish at Doha, you can read his lips as he crosses the line:

"Gobble Gobble, Muthaf***ers!!!"

I don't know but Kiprop's has an innocence about him when introduced at the starting line. He also as another poster mentioned has a body type 6-3 137 and look that that any average person would say, "that dude looks like he can bring it".

EL G was graceful but if guilty by association has any cred that most would assume he is a doper but personally I like to think El G was clean.

BTW- From what I say in Doha, Kiprop will break into El G's top 9 times.

Kiprop looks like a physical freak at 6'3" 137 for a distance runner. But no one knows.

bulldog35 wrote:

I don't know but Kiprop's has an innocence about him when introduced at the starting line. He also as another poster mentioned has a body type 6-3 137 and look that that any average person would say, "that dude looks like he can bring it".

EL G was graceful but if guilty by association has any cred that most would assume he is a doper but personally I like to think El G was clean.

BTW- From what I say in Doha, Kiprop will break into El G's top 9 times.

same

jjjjjjjjj wrote:

Kiprop looks like a physical freak at 6'3" 137 for a distance runner. But no one knows.

The "he is a physical freak" logic is some of the silliest in sport.

This isn't a fairytale - we all exist on a spectrum of physical attributes. At the end of the bell curve the differences are minute. "Physical freaks" who utterly dominate the competition at the top should be viewed with suspicion.

El G was clean. His consistency is his calling card. The dude was a beast at 18yrs old. He just stayed at it and never avoided any competition or testing.

Lagat failed a drug test. Valid or not, think about it: El G's entire career he never had a false positive. NEVER. But Lagat did. What does that tell you about Lagat.

Kiprop is clean. Dude is a freak like El G. A spider. No muscles, bone on bone, sinew within sinew. Love it.

Those aren't the only facts. Jones is not Lagat. Different time, different events, different coach, etc. Is there any common link? They test the "B" sample for a reason.

ALAN MF WEBB wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Different facts. Jones is not Lagat.

The article also notes "the A sample was questionable".

No, the same facts - positive A sample, negative B sample. Just like Lagat.

Jones was of course on epo all along.

I think we only need about 20 more conversations on this topic to finally get to the bottom of it all. keep going!

here's why wrote:

one word..

morocco

^^^^^Assuming your title is true, this is the main answer.

Seyta wrote:

The judgment criteria for doping based on "consistency of performance" really doesn't make all that much sense when you put together all the opinions on this board.

- A large number of people argue that being extremely consistent at a high level indicates doping. Exhibit A: El Guerrouj. Exhibit B: Gebrselassie. Exhibit C: Bekele.

- However, a significant proportion of the board also routinely accuses very inconsistent runners of doping for their wild fluctuations in performance. The runners accused include Centro (performing abnormally well during Championship races), Makhloufi (performing abnormally well during ONE Championship race), and a number of others.

As for consistency, I'd say you make a good point. I personally think long seasons full of incredible results is a sign of doping.

I also think sudden huge improvements are a sign of doping.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Why?

Well comparing El G to Kiprop is like comparing apples to oranges as they compete in totally different eras. Testers now are actively trying to catch people. There is an EPO test. None of that was really true when El G competed.

I've never ever heard anyone with a brain say Centro's clutch World performances were a sign of doping. The guy was great at tactics in college and won a WC medal while at Oregon. The recent talk surrounding him is the result of two things 1) he's in Alberto's group and 2) he didn't race indoors.

One more thing about Kiprop. He just looks different. The guy was a teen phenom and like Bolt just looks like a different specimen than everyone else in the race. Plus he seems human. Has bad races, gets hurt, etc.

Horst Girth wrote:

What ever happened to the (frozen) samples taken at the 2004 Olympics? I half recall hearing they were ultimately thrown out, or the testing period expired, something like that. So it'd be a moot point.

When I first heard about these frozen samples, my thought was that El G might be in danger of losing his two golds.

Of course, Lagat's silver might come under scrutiny too.

Anyone have info on this?

I totally agree with you. I thought it was very suspicious how many were thrown out and not tested. I wanted to know how they decided which samples to test and which ones to just discard.

When was that? Last year? I meant to try to figure out the rationale behind it.

Ramzi dropped from 3:39 to 3:30 in one year.

Many thought this was suspicious.

Even so, we have seen similar drops in other athletes. With El G, the talent was always there. Still, he was likely doing something. In an age of no testing for the most advanced endurance-boosting drug, all of those guys were going on.

Nowadays, you really do have to 'cycle.' Some think this better explains strong performances by current guys like makhloufi, centro, iguider, kiprop in championship races. Big corps like Nike can protect medically approved doping. many athletes have been the beneficiaries of medical opinion.

This is likely the case for Farah's transformation as well. Even Heredia thinks he's taken on a sudden almost insectoid appearance as a result of thyroid meds. Keep an eye on Makhloufi though, not kiprop. I expect Mak to threaten the wr before kiprop. You have to understand that Mak was likely in 3:27 shape when he won London. Recent testing changes have forced him to duck and dive, but I think he'll be back on the superman juice and looking to backpedal his way through the next world championship. He will likely not participate in many indoor seasons for years to come because that's his 'disappear and dope' period.

You know what I'm talking about.

bunk wrote:

Ramzi dropped from 3:39 to 3:30 in one year.

Many thought this was suspicious.

that old fox lagat had no trouble beating him and everyone else including the spaniards and algerians who were on CERA in 2007

that usually means one thing

lagat was on the same stuff himself

I wonder if they'll go back and check the 07

samples being as it was considered undetectable at the time

Lagat is a likable guy but has obviously been using all along

rojo wrote:

One more thing about Kiprop. He just looks different. The guy was a teen phenom and like Bolt just looks like a different specimen than everyone else in the race. Plus he seems human. Has bad races, gets hurt, etc.

So does El G. As your friend David Epstein put it, he is 5'9" wearing 32" jeans. That's unheard of.

As I pointed out earlier, he was also a string bean compared to the Moroccans that got caught. His BMI is way lower. Much less muscular. He looks way different.

serious question you guys wrote:

their PR's are only a second and a half apart

Political Correctness. Even though Kiprop feigned illness/injury at the 2012 Oly Games because his own handlers warned him he would likely be revealed as a doper if he medaled, so he tanked it in the final.