How could you not know who Tummler(bronze in Mexico) and Norpoth(Silver in Tokyo/nemesis of Pre) were?
How could you not know who Tummler(bronze in Mexico) and Norpoth(Silver in Tokyo/nemesis of Pre) were?
drewr wrote:
Ventolin-dad said definitely 1967. He said, "It was an unbelievable year."
He thinks in the right race he would have broken his 880yd record that year and he ran somewhere in the mid/high 13s for 5k that year pacing Tracy Smith to (I think) his 5k PR in a meet in Italy. Said it was a complete fluke, Tracy had asked him to pace him through 2 or 2.5 miles, he jumped into the race, paced Tracy and held on.
Drew: thanks so much for sharing these comments.
Vent: had no idea you had an ongoing dialog with the Ryun family. I would really appreciate any details you'd be willing to share about your own background. e.g. were you once a runner or never but longstanding running fan? were you following the sport in Ryun's day or did you gather data on his career only after the fact? etc, etc. Can't say I enjoy every one of your posts, but on balance I'm one of your fans and would greatly appreciate any personal info you're willing to share.
TYVM for posting these comments. Have always wanted to hear more about this race.
Dkny64 wrote:
drewr wrote:Ventolin-dad said definitely 1967. He said, "It was an unbelievable year."
He thinks in the right race he would have broken his 880yd record that year and he ran somewhere in the mid/high 13s for 5k that year pacing Tracy Smith to (I think) his 5k PR in a meet in Italy. Said it was a complete fluke, Tracy had asked him to pace him through 2 or 2.5 miles, he jumped into the race, paced Tracy and held on.
Drew: thanks so much for sharing these comments.
Vent: had no idea you had an ongoing dialog with the Ryun family. I would really appreciate any details you'd be willing to share about your own background. e.g. were you once a runner or never but longstanding running fan? were you following the sport in Ryun's day or did you gather data on his career only after the fact? etc, etc. Can't say I enjoy every one of your posts, but on balance I'm one of your fans and would greatly appreciate any personal info you're willing to share.
If he had any ongoing dialog he wouldn't have these questions.
The track Jazy ran his 3:53 on apparently looked like a bombing run had been conducted on it prior to the race.
Those guys must have considered such track surfaces pretty normal otherwise why wouldn't they have more fast performances when the track was perfect as it surely must have been for at least some of their races.
It would seem odd that many of the top performances of that era were on sub-par tracks.
SMJO wrote:
Dkny64 wrote:Drew: thanks so much for sharing these comments.
Vent: had no idea you had an ongoing dialog with the Ryun family. I would really appreciate any details you'd be willing to share about your own background. e.g. were you once a runner or never but longstanding running fan? were you following the sport in Ryun's day or did you gather data on his career only after the fact? etc, etc. Can't say I enjoy every one of your posts, but on balance I'm one of your fans and would greatly appreciate any personal info you're willing to share.
If he had any ongoing dialog he wouldn't have these questions.
Either "drewr" really is Jim Ryun's son Drew and is really forwarding answers from his dad to vent's questions or he's one of the great trolls of all time. If the former, I'm pretty sure that means Drew had been in touch with vent before. Could also mean Drew and Jim are just basically nice, open people. If the latter, hey, GREAT trolling - you sure fished me in.
It's the former. I'll jump on threads every once in a while.
Dad won't, but I'll call him up and say, "The Letsrun board wants to know. . ."
He gets a kick out of it, btw.
Hmm, Drew has always used a lower case d on here....
drewr wrote:
Ventolin-dad said definitely 1967. He said, "It was an unbelievable year."
He thinks in the right race he would have broken his 880yd record that year and he ran somewhere in the mid/high 13s for 5k that year pacing Tracy Smith to (I think) his 5k PR in a meet in Italy. Said it was a complete fluke, Tracy had asked him to pace him through 2 or 2.5 miles, he jumped into the race, paced Tracy and held on.
I'm sure he could have broken the 800 WR in 67 too. I think on first generation synthetic tracks your dad was probably capable of 1:43.0 and 3:30 for 1500. Would love to know your views on that .
I personally feel that Ventolin's claim your dad could run 1:39 and 3:24 a stretch too far.
Cheers.
Peer Mediator wrote:I'm sure he could have broken the 800 WR in 67 too
who cares what you think ?
were you even born in '67 ?
from as good as horse's mouth we know Ryun was in best shape of his life in '67
that means it is unquestioned he wouda broken 800 wr if he had got the right race
I think on first generation synthetic tracks your dad was probably capable of 1:43.0 and 3:30 for 1500
utter nonsense
he ran 1'44.3 when ill, feeling "terrible" with a prelim 800 coupla hours earlier
he likely shoudn't even have been running
he's got to have been well below 1'43 that day if fully rested & feeling 100% healthy running 1 - 2s +ve splits
& he has just told us he was much better in '67
so 1'43.0 is nonsense
as for 1500, 3'33.1 with just 1.5% conversion is
3'29.9+
that's already 3'30-flat without consideration of uneven laps, appalling amount of time thrown away in a 1st 300 of 46.5 which is 62-pace to add on top of evening out splits, 2nd bend run in lane 2 for ~ 3.5m extra distance & brutal 95F heat & terrble smog which was bad enough to finish ovett many years later
I personally feel that Ventolin's claim your dad could run 1:39 and 3:24 a stretch too far
cut the nonsense
no one is asking for Ryun/family for numbers
that is leg-work for us mere mortals & 1'43.0/3'30.0 is nonsense
Ha. SMJO-was posting from my iPhone last night. Laptop has me auto in as "drewr."
As for how fast dad could have run, pure speculation. I do think he would have run under 3:50 and 1:44 in rabbited races, surface notwithstanding. I mean, if you watch the ABC Sports footage of his 3:51.1, the clock stops at 3:50.9.
Regarding finishing speed (to hijack another thread), I'd put dad's last 300m up against anyone, past, present or future. Maybe over the last 100m someone like Coe would have the advantage, but winding up from any further than that, my not objective money is on dad. Interesting to note that two of the greatest finishers (dad and Ovett) were guys with great natural speed who put in some serious mileage.
Last thought. I have noticed some saying dad couldn't have handled an early fast pace, i.e. "modern" racing. In 1967 he closed his 1500m WR in 2:46 for the last 1200m. I think he could have gone out in 1:52-53 and closed from there.
IMO, James Ronald Ryun had the ability to run faster than the current US records for 800, 1000, 1500 and mile.
He certainly was as capable as Steve Cram or Alan Webb, so ~1;42, 3;29 and 3;46.
drewr wrote:Maybe over the last 100m someone like Coe would have the advantage
Drew, you do your Pa a dis-service.
The fastest last 100m in a slow race generally bandied about is Coe's 12.2 in his '80 gold run of 3'38.4.
The fastest last 100 in a fast race I believe is Asbel's 12.4 in his Doha '13 run of 3'31.1
( I timed this myself from Vid & not seen this info in any magazines or sites, but I don't believe anyone else has gone quicker not even Hicham/Bernie/Noah/Morceli ).
Your Pa ran splits generally accepted of 11.6/24.9 in this 3'38.2.
If he had ran that last 300 differently with gradual wind up of 24.9 & then blasted the last 100, I can see no logical reason why he would not have repeated that 11.6.
Drew, 1 question often asked about your Pa's 880WR in '66 at Terre Haute is the track surface.
There has been a lot of conjecture whether it was Grasstex being either a combo of dirt/tyre shreds or soft asphalt.
Does your Pa recall what the track surface was & did he think it was a significantly faster track than the usual dirt ones of that era ?
ventolin^3 wrote:
drewr wrote:Maybe over the last 100m someone like Coe would have the advantageDrew, you do your Pa a dis-service.
The fastest last 100m in a slow race generally bandied about is Coe's 12.2 in his '80 gold run of 3'38.4.
The fastest last 100 in a fast race I believe is Asbel's 12.4 in his Doha '13 run of 3'31.1
( I timed this myself from Vid & not seen this info in any magazines or sites, but I don't believe anyone else has gone quicker not even Hicham/Bernie/Noah/Morceli ).
Your Pa ran splits generally accepted of 11.6/24.9 in this 3'38.2.
If he had ran that last 300 differently with gradual wind up of 24.9 & then blasted the last 100, I can see no logical reason why he would not have repeated that 11.6.
I thought Said88 said that the last 300 was 36.6 and the last 200 has been stated as "loosely " 24.8, but the 200m line isn't clear from the video footage? That implies that back stretch 100 could just as easily have been 11.8 or a tenth or two slower.
I don't see that as much more impressive than Ovett's 12.0 on the bend in 77 World Cup in a much faster 3:34. Ovett eased off in the last 50, but could easily have maintained speed to the end and finished with a last 200 of 24.7. Yes I know Ovett's previous 200 was not as fast as Ryun's, but then the overall pace in Ovett's race was 4 sec faster. And the different surfaces would not have made that up. No way is dirt on a top track worth a second slower than 70's tartan.
Thanks very much for your input here! I've always wondered why more don't try to do something close to Jim Ryun's training, as in that era his coach thought that a sort of running equivalent of swim training was ideal and what he produced in Jim Ryun may very well have been unequaled in all the years since, if we factor in the enormous differences from paced vs. unpaced solo races and mondo vs. chewed up dirt or cinder tracks. You start from a swimming background, like so many of the fine American hs distance runners (Ryun, Webb, Mastalirs, Thomas are some that I am aware of), that is, from a background of long, long practices from an early age, practices consisting essentially of many, many intervals, and then for Ryun you repeat that on the track for a few years and you have a 20 year old running 2:46 for his last 1200 or 1320 in 1967.
Pretty sure the fastest last 100 would be Aouita's attempt to catch Cram.
That was a fast race too which counts for more than fast finishes in slow races.
Noble Kane wrote:
I thought Said88 said that the last 300 was 36.6 and the last 200 has been stated as "loosely " 24.8
Said88 said the last 300 was 36.5 or 36.6, but closer to 36.5. Likely "36.54" in his words.
but the 200m line isn't clear from the video footage? That implies that back stretch 100 could just as easily have been 11.8 or a tenth or two slower.
"Or slower"?
Did you even watch the footage...
I don't see that as much more impressive than Ovett's 12.0 on the bend in 77 World Cup in a much faster 3:34.
Ovett ran a much slower last lap and ran on a synthetic track. Put him on a dirt track that had a 10k run on it just before and I doubt you would be comparing it to Ryun
Ovett eased off in the last 50, but could easily have maintained speed to the end and finished with a last 200 of 24.7.
Ryun eased off too.
Yes I know Ovett's previous 200 was not as fast as Ryun's, but then the overall pace in Ovett's race was 4 sec faster.
Again, dirt track...
And the different surfaces would not have made that up.
Laughable
No way is dirt on a top track worth a second slower than 70's tartan.
SMJO wrote:
Pretty sure the fastest last 100 would be Aouita's attempt to catch Cram.
That was a fast race too which counts for more than fast finishes in slow races.
Nope, it was quoted at the time as 11.8, but they had taken that split for the last 90m. It was revised as 13.1, 26.0 for last 200m. It's in the IAAF Progression of World Records handbook.
Coe's last 100 in 3:47.3 Mile was also 13.1 and Cram's was 12.9 in his 3:46.3.
For 1500s at 3:32 or faster, the 2 fastest last 100s I know of are Coe's 12.5 in Zurich 84 3:32.39 (last lap 53.0) & Kiprop's 12.4 the other year (in Doha I think) in a 3:31, with the last lap a little slower.
Peer Mediator wrote:For 1500s at 3:32 or faster, the 2 fastest last 100s I know of are Coe's 12.5 in Zurich 84 3:32.39 (last lap 53.0) & Kiprop's 12.4 the other year (in Doha I think) in a 3:31, with the last lap a little slower.
no
the vid shows coe's exact last lap was 53.14
the last 100 is 12.6
his lead foot is already past 100m line with clock changing from 3'19.7 to 3'19.8