Malmo: poker question

Best advice I've given at the table?

1)"When I check you check. When I call you call. When I raise you reraise, and when I fold you get a straight flush."

malmo you said that with a straight face, but I couldn't keep my composure.

I have the tutorial and it makes a lot of sense.

Question for Malmo and others:

In limit poker, do you use ironclad rules when betting pre-flop, or do you go more by feel?

Example: With AA, obviously you would bet, and with 72 you would fold. A hand like KQ, or JTs falls more in the grey area.

Where is the borderline for you, the difference between staying in the hand and folding? For those with the tutorial, I've been using the 30th best hand across the spreadsheet as my border. Anything above I'll play, and anything below I'll fold. Is this too stringent or too lax? Thanks in advance.

Poker doesn't work that way, chief. Otherwise, it would be even more boring than it already is. The answer to your question will always need to include; What position are you in? How many callers or raisers are there? How many likely folders are behind you (gotta be able to read folds before they come), What is the style of the players? etc. etc. etc.

Example; A-10 on the button - is that in your top 30? Well, if you've got three callers to an early position raiser, then dump it. You're probably beat. But if everyone folded and you're first to act with only the blinds behind you, raise it up to steal the blinds or to go heads up. That's an example where a hand can merit a muck or a raise depending on the conditions. If you only play a set of starting hands you'll get creamed (over time) by decent players (and I'm not one; have only been playing for 6mo.).

Malmo, we emailed a few months ago about the tutorial. Can I bother you with that again?

Carnivore 69 wrote:

I have the tutorial and it makes a lot of sense.

Question for Malmo and others:

In limit poker, do you use ironclad rules when betting pre-flop, or do you go more by feel?

Example: With AA, obviously you would bet, and with 72 you would fold. A hand like KQ, or JTs falls more in the grey area.

Where is the borderline for you, the difference between staying in the hand and folding? For those with the tutorial, I've been using the 30th best hand across the spreadsheet as my border. Anything above I'll play, and anything below I'll fold. Is this too stringent or too lax? Thanks in advance.

You have to adjust for table position and your opposition. If you're the first to bet, for example, you have to tighten up your standards because of potential raises after you. Also, if you're at a particuarly tight table (which are practically non-existant these days), a raise with even a marginal hand may steal the pot. Always adjust to the circumstances...

I guess "Punk" posted right before me, so basically I'm just seconding his thoughts...

Hey, malmo, I flopped a straight flush the other night (spades, king high) on an EXTREMELY loose low-limit table... checked the flop with three spades on the board, bet on the turn, and got NO action (1st time all night)... just my luck...

Punk and xxx-

The tutorial actually covers the position your are in and how many callers may be behind you. The 30th best hand with ten players is very different than the 30th best hand with two players, and the tutorial shows this. Betting on the button is easy because you generally already know how many callers there are. So it takes into account these factors.

Obviously it doesn't take into account the playing styles of the other players, but in limit poker (especially low-limit) this is less of a factor than in no-limit.

So, where are your GENERAL boundaries on when to stay in and when to fold preflop, assuming you are the button and there are four other callers?

similar story here. I flopped a full house, then four 8s on consecutive hands ...this was after dozens of crap hands ... no callers, even on a low-limit table.

Four callers and I'm on the button? I'm certainly going to play more hands than usual. Since there's not likely to be a raise from the blinds (they'll often disguise their hands by calling or just be happy to see a flop for free or 1/2 a bet), I'll go in for one bet and see the flop. You've got great position and the pot odds (not the *implied* odds, but we'll ignore the people factor here) are pretty good for you to chase your draws. I'd play all suited connectors, any 2 suited cards as long as one of them is Q or better (but be prepared to get out if you get four on the board), and maybe some high connectors (as low as 9To). Having said that, I'll now get clobbered by the others for being to loose, but whatever, that's why I suck at limit.

And maybe I'm too tight, in that situation I normally won't play anything less than AJ, 88, or QJs. But sometimes I'll play as low as A7 (there's that discipline thing) if I'm significantly up in chips.

Carnivore 69, both Punk and xxx are correct - your starting hand inventory adjusts dependant upon three variables:

1) TABLE POSITION - Before you look at your cards you must be aware of your table position. Under the gun you must play stronger hands, closer to the deal you can play the weaker PLAYABLE hands in your inventory.

2) ACTION - who and what were the bets before you?

3) avg number of CALLER - as a generalization, what is the average number of players calling the first bet? If it's three or fewer (presuming a 10 handed game), you're in a tight game and you are playing against "rocks". If it's six or more, you're in a loose game, which is ideal for making money. Right now, games are very loose wherever you play. If your game is tight, then simply move on to another table.

TABLE POSITION, ACTION, CALLERS are the three things you need to acknowledge before making a bet. Make it a habit, when recapping a hand any experienced player will ask first, "Position?"

As far as the "top 30 hands," if you are taking them off of the no-foldem tables you may be a touch too tight. Again, it all depends on the average number CALLERS, and ACTION.

Use the NO-FOLDEM table as just another tool for starting hand selection. You can get starting hand recommendations from many different sources. As a generalization, they are pretty much all in agreement. Most of them put hands into groups, by their relative strenght, for example, AA KK QQ AKS will almost always be grouped together. If you guessed that AA will win more times than AK or KK, you'd be right. Still, all four hands are worthy answering a raise with a raise.

On a previous thread I've given you some links to starting hand selection. I learned years ago from a professional, and wrote everything down on five 4" by 6" cards. I still have the originals. Won my first hand, and have been playing with their money ever since. Again, the groupings that I learned from are going to match pretty closely to the groupings you'll see recommended by any other poker author. An aside here, ten years ago you could only buy books on poker through resources like Gambling Times. Just last week I went to Borders and was absolutely stunned - a whole shelf of poker books! A very, very good sign indeed...

Yes, you can play by "hard rules," and have a steady P&L. IT's better to adjust for the variables cited above and maximize your earnings. Hard rules won't hurt anyone, especially for those of you who've been no closer to a poker table than your TV set. On average, a winning player will play 8-12 hands an hour (figure 30 hands per hour dealt, obviously online will average almost double that). Eight hph, being on the tight side; twelve hph, is getting close. If you are playing 10 hands an hour (out of 30 dealt) you'll win about 2.7 hands an hour. Had all ten players called every hand to the very end, you'd win 3.0 hph. Even the Dyestat crown can see that throwing away 20 hands per hour has got to be a profitable move.

As far as the "tutorial" goes, that is something I was developing "live." I've previously laid-out an outline to it, because there are topics and concepts that I feel are important to visit, even though those five 4x6 cards has everything a beginner needs to play a winning game. Winning is good, winningerer is betterer.

Take Note:

1. POSITION

2. ACTION

3. CALLERS

4. CARDS

xxx wrote:

Hey, malmo, I flopped a straight flush the other night (spades, king high) on an EXTREMELY loose low-limit table... checked the flop with three spades on the board, bet on the turn, and got NO action (1st time all night)... just my luck...

I've only seen a stright flush pay off once. They just never seem to do. The hand that did pay off was, in betting order: Aces-Up got beat by Kings-Full, which got beat by Quad-Queens, which got beat by the Royal Flush. The Royal Flush was all-in on the flop (limit poker) so the Queens got paid for the turn and river bets. Just a great hand to watch.

In my first month of poker, last hand of the night I flopped sixes full of threes. One of the most experienced players at the table (and one of the better players in the Northwest) flopped Four threes. All bets raised to the limit, and four players called to the river, where I hit a six. I bet, he raised me, I reraised, he called, saw my cards and threw a fit. "YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT!" he screamed at me. "You're the one who raised me," I said calmly as he stormed out the door.

"When I check, you check. When I bet, you call. When I raise, you re-raise me. When I fold, you get a straight flush." That's all I expect at the poker table.

malmo wrote:

In my first month of poker, last hand of the night I flopped sixes full of threes. One of the most experienced players at the table (and one of the better players in the Northwest) flopped Four threes. All bets raised to the limit, and four players called to the river, where I hit a six.

I should add that one of the callers flopped the open-ender straight flush draw.

Malmo - Thank you for the response. I thought I was playing a little tight. At a ten-handed table, I've been averaging playing 2-3 hands per lap around the table (20-30%). And I should clarify - if I am the first bettor (I'm left of the BB), then I use hard rules. If I'm on the button, or SB/BB, I'll check to see how many are still in before I go, and I may go with a hand "outside the top 30" if there are only going to be three seeing the flop.

Overall I'm about even so far. I was down at the beginning, primarily because I tended to chase the OE or FD to no avail. Since then, I have tightened up the discipline and won back what I lost. I've only played low-limit poker so far, and if not for a few bad beat hands I would be up significantly, but I know those tend to even out in the long run.

and yes, I have been using the No Fold Em table for starting hand selection.

Malmo, what professional players do you think are the best?

Carnivore 69 wrote:

I was down at the beginning, primarily because I tended to chase the OE or FD to no avail.

Actually, the tables I play at (California) are so loose that you'll usually get pot odds for an OE of FD, even on the turn...

Sounds like you're doing a good job of thinking long-term, and that's the key to making a profit...

malmo: have you ever read Lee Jones' "Winning Low-Limit Hold 'Em"?

out of curiousity wrote:

Malmo, what professional players do you think are the best?

Really don't follow it much. I'd say that Seidel, Hellmuth, Harrington, Cloutier, Nguyan and Ferguson clearly stand out year after year.

xxx wrote:

malmo: have you ever read Lee Jones' "Winning Low-Limit Hold 'Em"?

No. Only read Sklansky and Caro (Book of Tells). Poker books don't exactly keep you on the edge of your seat.

Tutorial? Malmo please send.

BF