Why are so many posters appalled at Rupp's post-race WO?

HRE wrote:

I did 100-150 mile weeks for six years. I could never do any sort of interval session after a race. Cool down jogs were difficult enough. I'm not in any way comparing myself to Rupp but having done the sort of mileage he has done makes the post race session he did mind boggling. And that's why so many posters have a hard time believing it.

But the question here is, what if you had started doing workouts after races while in high school, say on 60 mpw or 70 mpw. Over 10 years later, it would probably be possible to crank workouts after a 2 mile or 5K race.

Additionally, Cam Levins looked better than Galen in the post 5000 race workout. Granted Galen ran nearly 20 seconds faster than Cam in the last mile of the race but still, Cam did 13:19 indoors and then did that workout looking better than Galen. Perhaps Cam is a bit fresh after coming down from so much mileage in the past. Perhaps he had less work load coming into the race. Regardless, he was there doing the workout and handling it.

As for the recent workout. Do people really think that 4:20 - 4:25 1600s with rest really take Galen to the tank? I've seen 5000 and 10000 meter races when he was doing that pace or better and looked like he was just on a tempo run. And that's all that is for him unless he is going 10K or longer. A 4:03 mile, for a 3:4X guy (okay at least 3:50). He ran 4:01 in high school, and you can bet he did a workout after that short race back then. Running a 4:03 when you are in shape for 3:49 or better is like a 4:30 guy finishing a workout with a 4:55 or 5:00. Pretty controlled.

That's a good point. On the other hand, I'm not sure I could EVER have run interval workouts after races. I have a hard time believing that I could have given how wasted I was so while I concede the possibility of doing what Rupp did (pretty simple concession given that it happened) it's still mind boggling to me.

You just quoted exactly what I'm saying. What would be the point of saying it again and how are anyone's PRs relevant to one's reaction to Rupp's performance from Saturday?

mixed integer programming wrote:

runner who professes wrote:

I am convinced that athletes who anticipate post-race workouts hold something back in the race. Central governor. This should be studied.

I'm in agreement.

+2

This is nothing new but I never tell my athletes they have a workout post race. I also don't give them post race workouts very often because I don't ever want them to hold back.

Hmmm.... wrote:

I know Al Sal has no respect for "message board rats" such as us, but there's one thing I don't get: why does he make a workout like this public? Wasn't there someone else Rupp could have gone to continue his workout, or another way he could have achieved the same results? This is just feeding the trolls, it seems.

I don't know why Salazar allowed the workout to be public as in broadcast, but the details would have come out anyway. I'm not criticizing the decision, but just stating I don't know what his thought process was.

That being said, the rest of your post doesn't click with me. Where else is he supposed to go do a workout in Boston in January in the dark?

I think people should remember that Rupp has had a very gradual progression. It's not like he just came out of the wood work and was taking cracks at world records. He's been doing post race workout for a long time and this is a training method Salazar has been known to use. He's an olympic silver medalist and that was the result of years of hard work and a steady progression. If Rupp had been running these times and workouts out of the blue, I'd say he's doped for sure, but I seriously doubt it.

Also recall that Rupp has remained injury free for basically his entire career. That's a HUGE key to his success. Steady progression plus no major injuries = success. Simple as that. Rupp has been doing things right for such a long time, people forget the trail he took to get where he is now.

harland wrote:

. Where else is he supposed to go do a workout in Boston in January in the dark?

Are there no lights and clear areas in Boston?

An excerpt from Matt Fitzgerald's "RUN", helps explain the idea behind post race workouts.

"The most potent stimulus for improvements in running biomechanics is most likely running in a fatigued state. When you become tired you become unable to run the way you normally do. Resisting fatigue is largely a matter trying to continue to run normally despite factors such as joint decoupling and muscle fuel scarcity that pull your stride apart. Through this effort to keep your form together, your neuromuscular system learns new patterns that increase your resistance to stride deterioration and increase your running efficiency in a rested state.

The idea that running in a fatigued state is something to be sought out in training for its performance benefits is unusual. The conventional, energy-based model of running performance views the work that makes you tired as beneficial. For example, exposure to VO2max in training increases VO2max. But what I propose is that the fatigue itself - or more particularly, the effort to resist it - is the point.

I am not suggesting that the more fatigued running you do, the better. You could very easily run tired all the time by overtraining. There is a difference between quality fatigued running and nonproductive fatigued running. As a general rule, to maximize the rate of stride improvement, run in a fatigued state as much as you can without accumulating fatigue from day to day and eventually week to week."

So run fatigued, i.e.- post race

Get the benefits of running fatigued after an awesome effort, and also make an already tough peak day, a full workout day. No way any other tough day that he peaked for was Galen going to do only 2 miles of hard running. Put it all in one day and move on.

BTW, 4 x mile at 10K pace not that hard. The 4:01 at the end is the thing messing everyone up here. They just can't comprehend his fitness level. Maybe they will understand after he runs 3:48-3:49 in a few weeks.

HRE wrote:

You just quoted exactly what I'm saying. What would be the point of saying it again and how are anyone's PRs relevant to one's reaction to Rupp's performance from Saturday?

By constantly using yourself as a reference point to base your arguments, YOU have made your PRs relevant to your own argument. If you are sub 13:40, than all of us might perk up our ears. If not, you must consult the literature like all other mortals and stop using yourself as a reference.

14:31 In case you want to know wrote:

By constantly using yourself as a reference point to base your arguments, YOU have made your PRs relevant to your own argument. If you are sub 13:40, than all of us might perk up our ears. If not, you must consult the literature like all other mortals and stop using yourself as a reference.

What if he is built like a brick sh*thouse and still managed to train himself to run 19:40?

My point being, 13:40 is not impressive for someone training daily and who has sub 13:00 potential (take, Rupp, for example) and sub 20:00 can be impressive for someone who is genetically predisposed for activities other than distance running.

If you judge someone's ability, dedication and potential by their PRs then I hope you are not coaching other runners.

Why don't you do a poll on how many people posting here

have done a post race workout.

I wonder if Steve Jones ever did a post race workout (if

he raced 5k).

Jones said that if he was still standing after a race, to hit him with a two-by-four, because he didn't give everything he had.

Maybe the Central Governor acts differently when you take

the right supplements.

I can see someone being on "supplements" that allow the body to deliver this type of workout after a record race but I can't see any supplement delivering muscle/tendon durability that would hold everything together under those stresses.

His body still has to be toughened to that.

The fact that nothing seems to be shredding under that level of wear and tear is more remarkable than the fact that he can actually run that far and fast after a race.

Who else could I use as a reference point for my own reaction to something? I have said all along that I recognize that people like Rupp are capable of doing things with their running that I could not.

If people's PRs really matter to you there was thread here ages ago called, I think, everybody's PRs. I'm there.

lets be clear!

when you are on drugs you can do incredible things .

Mary Cain is on it too don't be fooled

Treniere moser too!

with the hypoxic chamber is almost like tripling your epo production

HIF-1a

SMJO wrote:

harland wrote:

. Where else is he supposed to go do a workout in Boston in January in the dark?

Are there no lights and clear areas in Boston?

Sure anything is possible, but you really think it makes sense to go from the BU track, in a sweaty post race condition, out into 20 something degree weather to find an outdoor track that is lit and ready to run a workout on? If you want to be literal fine, but my point was it doesn't make any sense to do that workout anywhere else.

Many thousands of high school and college runners double and tripple at races, which is equivalent to what Rupp did with a post-race workout.

I used to do 1600, 3200 and a leg of the 4 by 800 in high school. Doubling and trippling was routine for all of the decent and good runners where I came from. I used to run the relay leg as a tripple about as quickly as I ran the open 800 fresh.

It is just what we did every week and sometimes twice a week. Meanwhile, people on twitter and on these boards find the idea incomprehensible. Go to any high school meet with schools who care about the team competition and you'll see this very thing. It might not be advisable from a training perspective, but it does not indicate doping to any degree.

HRE wrote:

I did 100-150 mile weeks for six years. I could never do any sort of interval session after a race. Cool down jogs were difficult enough. I'm not in any way comparing myself to Rupp but having done the sort of mileage he has done makes the post race session he did mind boggling. And that's why so many posters have a hard time believing it.

This is the problem with you yahoos. You are light years away from what Rupp can do. HRE's PRs are a modest at best(4:48, 9:23, 15:34). Rupp's quality and volume of training, as well has his talent, are in another galaxy compared to you. Give me a break.

HRE, what the hell were you doing running 100-150mi/week at your talent level? You must love running.

HRE, sorry for dumping on you a bit. You are a fan of the sport and you love running.

I mentioned on another thread that I couldn't have done Rupp's 5x1600 post race workout after my 2mi PR in the low 8:30s, but I could have done a scaled down 3x1600 ending in under 4:15. Again, Rupp is on another level with his talent, volume and quality of training, and ability to recover.

Having athletes workout after a race is nothing new. You don't hear about it that much because it's against NCAA rules to hold practice for an athlete on the same day he/she is competing. I learned of this rule the hard way 3 years ago when I had my 5k guys do 300's after they raced a 3k in late January. The 3k was the last race of the night and their volume of intensity wasn't at the amount I wanted them to have for the week, this workout would accomplish that. The AD happened to still be in the building, saw them working out and wasn't pleased. I told him we always do"strides" after workouts and races but had to end the workout early. I wouldn't be surprised if the top NCAA programs have workouts after races but keep them secret.

The only crazy thing about Rupp's post-race workout was the 4:01 at the end. 4:20's is a modest pace for him