Was Alan Webb really clean? (mods plz DONT DELETE nothing against the rules)

I am pretty sure this is a troll sandwich, but I can't resist taking a bite. I think Webb was the VA XC champ in his first or second year of running XC...do you really think he was doping at age 16? Also, Webb has had seasons where he ran XC, indoors and outdoors...at what point was he doping? I am sure you know that you have to have periods where you cycle off to avoid detection and compete? Since you bring the topic up, I am sure you know that dopers usually disappear for half of the year?

I was on Alan's high school team and the idea that he ever doped is just hilarious and stupid. In middle school he was known as a great runner (and unlike some middle schools that have real track teams or can join their accompanying high school team, we didn't have that).

Then in high school when he joined the team and actually started training he progressed naturally over those years and ended up arguably the greatest high school runner ever, no doubt our high school training worked very well for him.

Now, look what he did as a professional. Everyone realizes he didn't reach his potential. When he was healthy he was amazing (2004, 2005, 10k in 2006 before injury, 2007). When he was injured like at Michigan and post-2007 he ran poorly. Because of all these injuries we all know he didn't reach his potential, he was just starting to hit his peak after years of steady progression (and a couple injuries) when everything went to hell and the endless injuries started. If he had ever been doping there wouldn't have been a natural progression, instead he probably would've suddenly busted out a 3:27 1500 in 2005 or something and we'd be wondering where that came from.

Here is here 1500/Mile in years:

Freshman HS: 4:23 - I think, first year training, but not training year round

Sophomore HS: 4:06 mile - First year training year-round

Junior HS: 4:03 mile (slight injury at end of season so Raczko ended it early)

Senior HS: 3:59i, 3:53 (trained his ass off in XC to try to beat Ritz)

2002: Injured first half of track season so wasn't as good as previous year

2003: 3:58ish, not sure what happened here, but ended year with appendectomy

2004: 3:32 1500 - back on his game, natural progression from 3:53 3 years ago

2005: I think he still ran 3:32, but improved other events like 800, 2 mile AR, 5k

2006: 27:34 10k, then got injured

2007: 3:30, 3:46, natural progression from having run 3:32 3 years earlier

2008: over-trained?

2009 and beyond: mostly injured.

No where in there is there anything but natural progression and come backs from injuries until he could no longer come back from them.

The real story to Alan Webb is that he was a chronic overtrainer. He was so intent on being the world's best and so maniacal about it that he wore himself into oblivion. If you talk to his former coaches and former training partners, you will hear the same thing over and over. Never have they seen such natural talent. Do you all recall Salazar's awe at how fast he progressed in his one year under his coaching. Also never have they seen someone so resistant to the advice, "take it easy." Alan is the hero of his own Shakespearean tragedy, which is a lovely thing to be. He had the talent to be the best in the world and, at times, he got there. He had the drive to be best ever but he didn't have the perspective that sometimes more is not more. Those in the know, know. He was counting every calorie, measuring every step, obsessing about every muscle. I hope he finds peace in life because he never had a moment's peace as a world-class runner.

Super talented

clear

Head case (too emotional)

Jackie steward (auto racer) said this kill rzce car drivers

early physical maturer early end

bald in hs

many usa hs greats burn out early

heavy training in hs gets a negative from recruiters for a reason

.

his body thinks he's older

ed witlock in reverse

his career had all the signs of early PED abuse, the meteoric records followed by prolonged mediocrity.

mike phelps also has textbook signs of longterm growth hormone use.

in the usa, there is huge incentive to be a precocious PED user.

it is NOT conceivable for an athlete to run 3:53 for mile at 18 then not be able to come within 10 seconds in his late 20s and early 30s. this is not a headcase burnout or injuries, it natural performances after prolonged PED use.

why does anyone believe it would be unusual for an athlete in middle school or HS to be using blood-doping by reinfusing stored blood or even using low dose EPO, neither would harm the hormonal axis or affect growth? I strongly suspect Jim Ryun was using testosterone too by the way and stopped using it later in his career when his endocrine axis shut down. Suspect Mary Cain is also doping.

there aren't enough athletes of freakish ability produced in the west to support that the freaks we do generate aren't dopers.

there are tons of african freaks bc of genetic, our freaks are made in lab like Paavo Nurmi, Lasee Viren. we protect their positive tests on US and European soil too, so they rarely produce in the olympics. steve scott was also running 3:47 for hte mile, what did he ever do in the olympic or worlds? he was a PED user.

sorry - the countyr with the highest PED use at the junior level is the US - every HS in the country has football players on roids, why wouldn't a HS track star bank his blood or carefully use EPO? much, much to gain. the fact that he can't come close to his HS perofrmances in his 30s speak to PED use. very very logical.

So, in review

There are no sound reasons to even suspect Alan Webb of doping. He is a gifted athlete, worked hard, had some tremendous success and some tremendous disappointments.

I'd like to shift back to what Rojo said about Lance Armstrong. LA's story wasn't simply "take EPO win Tour". Chemo played a major role in changing his power/weight ratio.

Hincapie admitted in his affadavit that LA decided to start using EPO in '95 after getting crushed at a race (pg 4:

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

).

I also think its unrealistic to believe the playing field wasn't even at this time. The following link just shows those who were caught:

http://i.imgur.com/i3mwd.jpg

.

That is all.

Watch Webb as he barrels down the final stretch when he ran 3:50 high at the Pre Classic. He looks unnaturally big for a miler. Hgh? Also- I remember an interview back in 2007 or 2008 from letsrun when Webb was posed the question - "what a difference a year makes" If you can find the interview, watch his body language as he hears the question.

EdgarAllanPoe wrote:

I'd like to shift back to what Rojo said about Lance Armstrong. LA's story wasn't simply "take EPO win Tour". Chemo played a major role in changing his power/weight ratio.

Hincapie admitted in his affadavit that LA decided to start using EPO in '95 after getting crushed at a race (pg 4:

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

).

I also think its unrealistic to believe the playing field wasn't even at this time. The following link just shows those who were caught:

http://i.imgur.com/i3mwd.jpg

.

That is all.

Who cares what Hincapie testified to? LA was doped up well before 1995. He was a national champion in 1989 and a world champion in 1993. Back then there was no testing and everyone was doped. He was doping going back to high school in the 1980s.

cleanman wrote:

I was on Alan's high school team and the idea that he ever doped is just hilarious and stupid. In middle school he was known as a great runner (and unlike some middle schools that have real track teams or can join their accompanying high school team, we didn't have that).

Then in high school when he joined the team and actually started training he progressed naturally over those years and ended up arguably the greatest high school runner ever, no doubt our high school training worked very well for him

Dude, you were on his HS team? that is so cool! Can you share anything about what the training was like? What workouts and what was the periodization of the workouts? Also, is Allen funny? (I'm shallow and funniness is the #1 thing I judge people's character by) Lastly, how good was the team as a whole and did Alan's presence on the national scene inspire the rest of the team and make them better or have a negative effect?

Time for a little common sense. no one is blood doping in high school. When a kid is putting up times like that as a high schooler - fast from the beginning and a steady progression throughout his career - he is the real deal! Also, dopers tend to have long careers because they are able to reap the benefits of the drugs long after they are done with them (cough* cough* LAGAT). Webb is the perfect example of talent, hard work and mind power. Don't go around tarnishing the guys name when he deserves nothing but praise.

Webb for President 2016

Rojo NO; does no work for you..? 2007 he was juiced to his eyeballs. Fanboy bullsh!t is what you're all about plus you're now playing the PC card; too much to lose if you don't defend ... If I ran over you with a car would you claim it was just a scrap..? 3:46.91 is DOPE. After that Webb ran with guilt in his mind; he couldn't live with the fact he doped to take that record. Paula; Koman; Webb all clean ...not; please pull your head out of azz...

Chris Lukezic, a world-class miler who sometimes trains with Webb, recalls a June workout on the track at George Mason. "It was me and Alan and [Canadian Olympian] Kevin Sullivan. We were doing 800s. We started out pretty easy, like a two-minute pace, and it went down pretty impressively from there. I dropped out after seven. Kevin dropped out after eight. Alan did nine. The last couple, man, fast." At the end Webb had dipped into the low 1:50s.

Who has done this workout..? 9x800 from 2:00-1:51 ..?

DOPE never a doubt in my mind.

Why stop at America? When it comes to busted dopers, the elite middle distance and long distance are under-represented.

Coach Dunbar wrote:

Great topic and of course I find it interesting that Webbs name would come up for a doping discussion when is the last time or who was the last guy to be busted for doping at the American Distance Runners? You think Ritz, Meb, Hall, Rupp, ??? we're not talking sprinters in which doping is all over the place, we're talking middle distance runners. None of these guys ever dope or even questioned about their integrity because as good as they are- we all know its all hard work, dedication, and sacrifice. Even Webb is and always has been clean. Same with the Greats like Ryun, Lindgren, Mills, Pre, Shorter, Rogers, Salazar, Moore, and Kardong. Can you even name the last elite American Male Distance runner to be busted? because I certainly can not.

Oh can I play too?

Ok:

Bill Rodgers: win Boston and New York four times but nothing in Olympics (don't tell me about injury this and boycott that)...whatever

Billy Mills - splitting halfway in the 10000m just one second slower than your 5000m best? Yeah right.

Roger Bannister: "med student" breaking 4 on 25 miles a week...I think we know what that was about

Herb Elliott - WR in the Olympics and then retire at 22...got scared of getting caught, huh?

Murray Halberg - disabled guy wins the Olympics on sheer talent and hard work...c'mon...

Bobby Joe Morrow - you really think a white guy can naturally run like that?

Rod Dixon - 1500 guy wins the NY Marathon?...I don't think so

Peter Rono - can't win the NCAAs but wins the Olympics...sure...

Henry Rono - 4 world records in a matter of months while living at the bar? No way.

Frank Shorter - how do you think he beat the Soviets? Talent and training? Yeah right.

Gerry Lindgren - 8:40.0 two mile on a 160 yard track in high school from just running a lot? What crap.

(I'm obviously ridiculing the poster I've quoted above)

You forgot to rip him on the preposterous Phelps dig. What exactly are the "textbook signs of longterm growth hormone use"? The fact the he tall, fit and fast? The last person you should suspect of doping is someone who voluntarily entered Project Believe. It seems like there is a never-ending amount of morons on here.

I think he matured early

Every so often, there comes a generational athlete. Someone, who just has a pure gift because they've been blessed with genetic/biological jackpots. Sure to reach the pinnacle they need hard work and honing, but they just have certain genetics and pure talents that you can't teach...

This person is like a pioneer that stands above the rest of their countrymen. Like Michael Jordan, they just do things that mere mortals can't fathom. They raise the bar for everyone and get everyone working harder to emulate their "play" and success. (yeah i'm sure your gonna tell me webb wasn't a success - if running 3:46, 13:10, and 27:xx isn't well please redefine success for me)

Previous examples:

USA Jim Ryun - World Record holder at like 20, we didn't see anyone like him till perhaps Alan Webb. Even over the hill with a desperate comeback he still grabbed an olympic spot.

GBR Seb Coe - sure, you can throw out a bunch of very good names, but nobody since that lil guy has been more trusted in the last lap of race to come away with victory (until Farrah).

USA Rodgers/Shorter - Sure tell me there were no Africans. Nobody consistenly ruled the roads and there times against current americans still stand (unless you run boston with a 30mi wind at your back).

Michael Johnson - nobody since in US sprinting, don't give me your warner or your merrits... From 1991 until he was a retiree, this guy just lit things up. I'm a distance guy and I had a nike poster of him because he just seemed like a horse... He could win anything.

Speaking of race horses - I'll use one as my final comparison. The Autopsy showed Secretariat just had a heart that was 2.5x the norm. That muscle could pump oxygenated blood like no other equine. We haven't seen anything even close since, with or without drugs.

-Alan Webb, thank you for giving us so much.

Once in a Blue Moon wrote:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1108670/2/index.htm

Chris Lukezic, a world-class miler who sometimes trains with Webb, recalls a June workout on the track at George Mason. "It was me and Alan and [Canadian Olympian] Kevin Sullivan. We were doing 800s. We started out pretty easy, like a two-minute pace, and it went down pretty impressively from there. I dropped out after seven. Kevin dropped out after eight. Alan did nine. The last couple, man, fast." At the end Webb had dipped into the low 1:50s.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2120668

Who has done this workout..? 9x800 from 2:00-1:51 ..?

DOPE never a doubt in my mind.

Seb Coe : 2:08, 2:06, 2:04, 2:02, 2:00, 1:58 and 1:56 with 45 seconds rest.