Starting with Lydiard

Does Snell actually talk in such fragmented sentences?

Yes. That quote is from the interview I did with Snell. He doesn't say he would do his distance runs faster which is what SMJO's supposed quote says.

SMJO, do you actually have anything useful and constructive to say?

You are always putting other people down and contradicting them without any supporting evidence.

And like "fasten your safety belts" said, "The OP wants to do Lydiard training. He didn't ask your opinion of whether is was outdated or not."

Why don't you team-up with António and start a thread where you explain (and support with evidence and not quotes you "remember very well") your views on Lydiard training?

Who knows, maybe if you present your views in a calm, polite and constructive way, you may even make some sense.

I for one would like to read such a thread and what the two of you have to say - in a structured way.

I am not pro or against Lydiard training. I want to learn. If you have something useful to share I will be thankful.

SMJO wrote:

Does Snell actually talk in such fragmented sentences?

I don't know, but he has three Olympic Gold Medals.

Haha, Lydiard threads turn ti shit even without Cabral.

SMJO wrote:

Oh no. Will our worlds ever be the same?

Thanks, your sarcasm tells me you now understand... even though your pride won't let you admit it.

fasten your safety belts wrote:

SMJO wrote:

Oh no. Will our worlds ever be the same?

Thanks, your sarcasm tells me you now understand... even though your pride won't let you admit it.

Admit what? Snell clearly has been all over the place with his quotes through the years.

People on here have quoted him as saying he could have just raced off the base training phase and he actually did do that successfully at times.

How many Olympians is Snell coaching now?

Happy plodding OP.

Your comments might make more sense in a thread with the subject "Lydiard vs. Coe". Why do you talk about Olympians in a thread started by a running "noobie" simply wondering how to buildup mileage?Snell's "plodding" (if we believe your memory) was 7:00/mile pace, and our OP's 5K race pace is 9:00/mile.Snell and Coe ran the 800/1500. We don't even know yet what the OP wants to do, or what he can do.Whatever Snell said, or Coe said, was it really directed at the beginner who runs a 27:00 5K, and can just about last 30 minutes a session?Lydiard gave a buildup program directed at the beginner, trying to get him/her to run 7 days a week, and up to 60 mins at a time comfortably, with a 90/120 min. long run. This mileage build-up is not "real" Lydiard training, but simply a prerequisite to any training.In general, every training is good, so long as you are improving. It's when you stagnate you need to make some changes.

SMJO wrote:

Admit what? Snell clearly has been all over the place with his quotes through the years.

People on here have quoted him as saying he could have just raced off the base training phase and he actually did do that successfully at times.

How many Olympians is Snell coaching now?

Happy plodding OP.

Glad to see it's not just me who feels all these Lydiard threads get invaded by a few people (namely Antonio and SM whatever) and get trashed. It's interesting to me though that I have not yet seen any of Lydiardites, HRE or Wetcoast or Kim, coming on other threads like Coe thread or Alan Webb thread or Canova thread or whatever and bad-mouthing "other" training. It's always Antonio and SM show up uninvited and twist the thread to THEIR training. It is nothing but very irritating at best.

In fact, actually I'm not sure if they are 2 different people-both SM and Antonio don't seem to understand English too well. Of course, SM doesn't seem to totally "kill" English like Antonio, but his "debate" is like that of a 5th grader. Seriously, Snell not having coached any Olympian matters? Then how about Coe? How many Olympian has Seb Coe coached? None. So let's drop this "fast finish" none-sense too. By the way, there IS a difference between "he WAS a physiologist" and "he BECAME a physiologist"; one is "condition" and the other is "action". And to expect anybody to understand that he meant the same sort of shows that his comprehension development is very low...or he's a non-English speaking person.

For OP, it would be advisable, if you DO want to start the Lydiard way of training, to read a bit more about Lydiard training. I believe "Running with Lydiard" is still available and it talks about how you should start running long and short...hard and easy combination until you are comfortable running an hour a day continuously with one long run a week upward of 2 hours. Lydiard wouldn't even recommend trying 100 miles a week before you do that. I saw Nobby saying somewhere recently that Lydiard told him to run at "whatever the pace you feel happy with." That sounds about right to me. If you want to run faster, that would be fine but, if it's beyond your capability, you won't be too happy about it the next day.

I also found it interesting that I saw a thread about Ryan Hall blaming (or whatever the real situation might be) Canova for at least one of his injuries. It's cool to talk about what coach Canova does with Kenyans and call that a modern training. But even coach Canova himself had been saying that Kenyans he works with are "super human" with "turbo engine" who wouldn't get any benefits from EPO and other performance enhancing drugs. So why are we even comparing that kind of training with a 27-minute 5k beginner? Even Ryan Hall gets injured doing this "modern traiing". I guess it's not for us mortals.... I remember Antonio saying something to the effect of he wouldn't even coach someone who hadn't reached his or her potential in 5k or 10k. And I remember Greg McMillan saying something about what brings you to that potential (so you can handle those super-human effort in training) is Lydiard training. In other words, build the foundation. So let's leave those super-human Canova training to those super-humans. OP, stick with Lydiard and build a solid foundation before you look side way and start flirting with super effort training. Without the foundation, you'll be lucky to end up injured. Antonio can't even prescribe a program to get you there. He only deals with someone who's "already there".

Nice clumsy try.

As a physiologist, Snell should be coaching to prove his point. Coe is a politician.

Hard to believe you care that much about internet debate to go to those lengths.

It's an interesting point to think about: how much weight should we place on what Snell "the physiologist" would change about Snell "the athlete"'s training?Lydiard proved his ideas in practice. What Snell would change, knowing what he knows now, is still theory.I think a secret ingredient of what makes great coaches great doesn't make it in the books, presentations, and seminars. A great coach has the ability to see when things are not working according to the plan, and the ability (or luck) to know what to do about it.

SMJO wrote:

...

As a physiologist, Snell should be coaching to prove his point.

...

rekrunner wrote:

It's an interesting point to think about: how much weight should we place on what Snell "the physiologist" would change about Snell "the athlete"'s training?

Lydiard proved his ideas in practice. What Snell would change, knowing what he knows now, is still theory.

I think a secret ingredient of what makes great coaches great doesn't make it in the books, presentations, and seminars. A great coach has the ability to see when things are not working according to the plan, and the ability (or luck) to know what to do about it.

SMJO wrote:

...

As a physiologist, Snell should be coaching to prove his point.

...

Your last sentence is totally one the mark and essentially Snell told me is the reason he does not coach. He said that coaching requires a kind of personal relationship with your athlete(s) and while he's happy to consult and advise he does not want to get that deeply involved with a particular runner.

...

As a physiologist, Snell

As a physiologist Snell has never been in the same class as Costill, Daniels, Wilmore etc. regarding research involving running.

As a runner I would pay attention to what he has to say as an exericse physiolcgist, I'll look at Costill and others first.

to Op

Read lydiard, find Ron Daws' both books will further educate you. Look at the lydiard foundation web site there is some really good stuff there. You can post questions there and Nobby and others such as Lorraine Moller will reply, they are generous with their knowledge.

Lydiardism aims to turn you into a cardiac monster through base (natural-pace, steady)running. Then, you sharpen with speedwork. You can follow your cardiac-monster base phase with hills, too. Speedwork includes anaerobic running of various kinds. Experiment with pace and distance. You will know when you have dipped into oxygen debt. You are then ready to race, combining the base and sharpening phases. Lydiard was insistent that you don't need a pseudo-scientific program but could do much of this by feel. Anyone who tells you to run 15 X 440 without knowing you isn't a Lydiardite. I would also emphasize that this whole process can take years of strengthening and adaptation. Salazar understands how to coach by feel, as did Bowerman, who is a very important but often neglected figure in the evolutionary history of Lydiardism. Bowerman helped us understand the utility of distinguishing between date pace and goal pace, which is a constantly moving target. You will know that the base work is paying off because you will be less tired and also faster. Lydiard was foundational because he understood that base work--the cardiac-monster phase--in itself makes you faster, even before sharpening. This is akin to Einstein's counter-intuitive realization that mass contains energy. Don't build speedwork into your base phase, although you will be tempted. Read Running with the Buffaloes and pay attention to Wetmore's instruction for summer base work, before the fall semester starts.

SMJO wrote:

Nice clumsy try.

As a physiologist, Snell should be coaching to prove his point. Coe is a politician.

Hard to believe you care that much about internet debate to go to those lengths.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! I've seen many stupid comments at LRC over the years but this would have to be ranked way up there. So an exercise physiologist would have to coach an Olympian in order to prove their "theories" correct? I guess we can all kiss Dave Costil good bye!! And Coe is a politician so it's okay and that makes what he says correct? Well, I guess THAT you are right; politicians would have to be right, right? A great logic!! This is a good one!! Just because you act like a jerk and talk like a bully, that does not always make you right.

Thanks. Stay in school, son.

SMJO wrote:

Thanks. Stay in school, son.

Don't worry, sir, I intend to--so I won't end up being like you.

48 wrote:

to Op

Read lydiard, find Ron Daws' both books will further educate you. ....

+1 to the recommendation for both of Ron Daws' books. Running Your Best is especially good for getting a novice runner set up with a good Lydiard-based program.

The one thing I've noticed with my Lydiard reading, is that it is easy for a beginner to get ahead of themselves by jumping into too much mileage... Daws' books give you some good stories, principles & concepts to help you follow Lydiard, but avoid this trap.