Montesquieu wrote:
Ryun was an animal in every respect!
We are all animals. But the ABSOLUTE truth is that Jim Ryun, if he had run in the ElG era, would not have run much faster than Alan Webb. Maybe Ryun would have run low 3:29 and high 1:42. That would be the absolute fastest. Anybody who says anything to the contrary is just fantasizing.
Here's Ryun with the world record in the mile, from wire to wire. Alas, this is the race I had in mind.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlwS0Fyq8vk
Les wrote:
Montesquieu wrote:How many guys have set the world record in the 1500 leading from the first step to the last?
Not many, Filbert Bayi for one, but certainly not Ryun who did not lead the entire race.
Les wrote:
Not many, Filbert Bayi for one, but certainly not Ryun who did not lead the entire race.
wrong
Ryun led gun to tape on a chewed up dirt track with a massive negative split
Bayi ran more even splits on a synthetic track and broke ryun's mile record by .1
kkkkkkkkkkks wrote:
We are all animals. But the ABSOLUTE truth is that Jim Ryun, if he had run in the ElG era, would not have run much faster than Alan Webb. Maybe Ryun would have run low 3:29 and high 1:42. That would be the absolute fastest. Anybody who says anything to the contrary is just fantasizing.
thanks for sharing the ABSOLUTE truth with us
i guess we can now end this discussion once and for all
Les wrote:
Montesquieu wrote:How many guys have set the world record in the 1500 leading from the first step to the last?
Not many, Filbert Bayi for one, but certainly not Ryun who did not lead the entire race.
This is still the definitive and most exciting 1500m race. Bayi running 1:51.8 through 800m redefined the event. For all of Ryun's greatness he was a kicker. Did he ever go through 800m in this kind of split? Did anyone up until then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjhC-1W9QTEgood bayi wrote:For all of Ryun's greatness he was a kicker
eh ???
you don't just "kick" to a 1'44.3wr
nor does a "kick" let you run a 2'18.8 finish in a 3'33'1wr
2'18.8 = 1'51 pace
nor does a "kick" let you finish same race in 2'46.6 = low-3'28 pace = 1'51 pace
for comparison as we have no full vid of ryun's 3'33.1wr, this guy in faster race coud only manage 2'47+ finish, so this gives a visual idea of ryun's last 1200, apart from ryun's being faster & from reports his only real hard effort was last 300
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jrqsbD3PcSo what?
EL Guerrouj ran the first 1000m also in 2:18.8 in his WR run, yet finished the remaining 500m 7 secs faster than Ryun did. That's far more impressive.
In fact it doesn't matter whether the fastest segment of a race is at the end, beginning or in the middle.
you clearly have no clue about dirt tracks nor relative effort expended
yes, hicham was under-performing at bell as he only clocked 2'32.8 = 3'28.3 pace & put in a huge 53.2 finish
you have to offer him
~ 3'25.5/3'25.6
that day at even pace
however, ryun's last 1200 of 2'46.6 was not only on dirt & murderous 95F heat, he was far from all-out thruout that last 1200
he "walked" the 1st 300 in a pathetic 46.5 ( = 62/lap ) just trying to track kip
this really can't have taken anything out of him, probably handicapped him as he deliberately slowed down to track kip
the vid even shows him slowing down at the start to get with kip
when keino made his move at ~ 300m in, ryun speeded up to ~ 60.9 at 400
( bailey 60.9s at 440y with ryun ~ 3 - 4m back -> 60.9 for 400m, which tallies with t&f timing crew )
he therefore only went about 60.9 at 400, meaning 57.5+s pace
he therefore speeded up somewhat in that 100 but not flat-out
this 100 wasn't flat-out
kip went 56.0 for next lap which was fast ( fastest ever 'til then ) then slowed to 58.0 to 3/4 mile, probably wanting to see what ryun had left
the 1/2 - 3/4 was nowhere near flat out
ryun blasted 3/4 - 1500 in 38.1 = 39.0 at virtually even pace
( listed as running next 210y in 24.6 - the variations in hand-timing & finding metric marks offer lotta error in less-observed points )
he was in likelihood slowing fractionally last 100 but not by much
( given 95F & worst smog in western hemisphere )
but he has been pretty adamant he couda gone on at near same pace for another 109.344m at similar pace if it had been a mile race
bottom line is, that day, his last 1200 of 2'46.6 =
3'28.25 pace
off a "walk" for 300m & even wasting energy to actually slow down to track kip & then running last 1200 very unevenly at
57.5+ pace -> 300 - 400
55+ pace -> 400 - 800
57.5+ pace -> 800 - 1200
52s pace -> 1200 - 1500
with only the 2nd & 4th phases run real hard, throwing away lotta time in 1st & 3rd phases, i woud offer him that
3'28.25 if flat-out from gun-to tape
that on dirt at 1s/lap to '70s synthetic + debilitating 95F compared to ~ 70F expected for a 1500wr attempt + worst smog in 1st world city
said88 wrote:blah...blah
you own the dvd & i have asked you on at least
5 !!!
occasions, answers to these questions embedded in quote :
coud he kindly comment on
"norpoth delayed ryun"
&
"but ryun swung around norpoth on the curve"
from the dvd, what exactly was "delay" ?
how wide did ryun have to run to get around norpoth ?
can your next reply be analysing your dvd & offering answers !?
Stop trying to mislead people.
There is no scientific proof whatsoever that cinder tracks are a second slower per 400m.
Ryun's last 300m was 39.6 not 39.0. His 100m splits are in the IAAF World Record Progression book, and are given as 13.0, 13.1, 13.5. Thus he was slowing down in the penultimate 100m and slowing down more in the last 100m.
His last 200m was 26.6.
Please give a direct source for him quoting that, " he has been pretty adamant he couda gone on at near same pace for another 109.344m at similar pace if it had been a mile race".
This contradicts what he said at the time and which appears on P.330 of the Quercetani/Nelson book, "The Milers", in which he said, "Coming around to the tape, I tended to tie up."
Those are not the words of someone who could have carried on at the same pace and the stats are not those of someone who was finding it easy. Certainly on the footage at the Pathe archives he looks to be losing form over the last 50 and does not look relaxed once he passes the finish line.
He also had Keino pacing and drafting him up to 1200m, 100m further than what is usually expected or afforded to an athlete in a WR performance.
The temperature has only been given as "in the 80's" and should have little if any effect on an elite running for 3 and a half minutes anyway.
Please share an "official" source giving the temperature as 95 degrees. I noticed you made a similar mistake inflating the temperature in London by about 10 degrees when Rudisha broke the 800 WR.
ventolin^3 wrote:
no one, & i mean no one has run
50.5/36.5 with 11.6 !!!/24.8 or 24.9
no one else in history has run under 38 in a sub-3'39
11.6 !!! in 36.5 !!!
I think Abraham Chebii ran about the same for 1500m but it was at the end of a 5k, maybe 49 high last 400m.
[/quote]
I think Abraham Chebii ran about the same for 1500m but it was at the end of a 5k, maybe 49 high last 400m.[/quote]
Yeah, its not that impressive of Ryun to close a slow race fast:
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/abraham-chebii-169928
.
In the Grand Prix Final at the end of the 2002 season, he clocked 50.68 for his last 400 meters, and he didn't start his full sprint until 250 to go. As he says, however, "It is easy to kick when the pace is slow. You must be able to follow a fast pace and then kick." Which is what he trained himself to do over the 2002-2003 off-season. The most convincing evidence of that training's effectiveness came in the Rome GL, where Haile Gebrselassie, having been outsprinted by Chebii in Paris, started driving for home from 600 meters out, with Kenenisa Bekele and Chebii in tow. Haile was spent by the final turn and moved wide to let Kenenisa through, but Chebii slipped through the gap as well and bounded after the sprinting Kenenisa. He passed the Ethiopian with 50 to go and was timed at sub-25 for his last 200 -- in a 12:57 race.
Deanouk wrote:
Stop trying to mislead people.
There is no scientific proof whatsoever that cinder tracks are a second slower per 400m.
Ryun's last 300m was 39.6 not 39.0. His 100m splits are in the IAAF World Record Progression book, and are given as 13.0, 13.1, 13.5. Thus he was slowing down in the penultimate 100m and slowing down more in the last 100m.
His last 200m was 26.6.
Please give a direct source for him quoting that, " he has been pretty adamant he couda gone on at near same pace for another 109.344m at similar pace if it had been a mile race".
This contradicts what he said at the time and which appears on P.330 of the Quercetani/Nelson book, "The Milers", in which he said, "Coming around to the tape, I tended to tie up."
Those are not the words of someone who could have carried on at the same pace and the stats are not those of someone who was finding it easy. Certainly on the footage at the Pathe archives he looks to be losing form over the last 50 and does not look relaxed once he passes the finish line.
He also had Keino pacing and drafting him up to 1200m, 100m further than what is usually expected or afforded to an athlete in a WR performance.
The temperature has only been given as "in the 80's" and should have little if any effect on an elite running for 3 and a half minutes anyway.
Please share an "official" source giving the temperature as 95 degrees. I noticed you made a similar mistake inflating the temperature in London by about 10 degrees when Rudisha broke the 800 WR.
The Sports Illustrated report on the LA 1500m does quote Ryun as saying he could have continued through to a mile at same pace: "[Ryun] said, 'I could have gone another 120 yards after this race with no trouble at all.'"
Whether that's true or not is of course another question.
As for temps, official high at Pasadena station that day was 91F. The temperature at trackside in the Coliseum bowl could easily have been 95.
http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/orders/IPS-EF4FBCF6-C29B-4E93-8630-E557A4DB49BA.pdfWhether that temp had any significant effect on performance is, again, something that can be debated.
Link to SI article with Ryun quote:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1080064/index.htm
Something to consider wrote:
Yeah, its not that impressive of Ryun to close a slow race fast:
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/abraham-chebii-169928
Except Ryun ran on dirt
and ran wide the first 100
and closed in 36.5 over the final 300m
11.6 on the backstretch
...
what a stupid statement to make
First things first. People who dispute the second a lap gain in speed going from dirt/cinders to synthetic never ran on dirt! Remember , dirt tracks got chewed up during a meet so if your event was towards the end of the meet you could end up running on something resembling a cart track!
Ryun was clearly capable of the splits attributed to him in the 1967 race under discussion. He ran some extraordinary races : his 3:51.1 mile and his 3:33.1 1500 both feature almost unbelievable splits (very slow first 400 in each case).
If Ryun had the advantages of today's athletes - paced races in Europe , fast tracks , having no financial concerns at all , not having to cope with the demands of a college season - he would be running at least as fast as anyone ran 1500 in 2013 (not a vintage season granted)
Accept it ; Ryun was a phenomenal athlete. His peak years did not coincide with the Olympic cycle otherwise he would be considered one of the very greatest of all time. Yes his training might have been "wrong" in the eyes of many so-called experts - but it did enable him to destroy world records so he must have been doing something right??
mark b wrote:
First things first. People who dispute the second a lap gain in speed going from dirt/cinders to synthetic never ran on dirt! Remember , dirt tracks got chewed up during a meet so if your event was towards the end of the meet you could end up running on something resembling a cart track!
No kidding, I would have thought 1 second per lap was conservative..... my high school had a dirt track, which they replaced with a cinder my senior year, no lanes or anything. We thought for sure the track was long, until we measured it... 393 meters!
Ryun 3:53.7 AR 1966 (freshman year)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zytE7oISIh0
Ryun 3:51.3 WR 1966
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KplTtwhhG64
Ryun 3:51.1 WR 1966
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFLeCTZIhQ8
Ryun vs Keino (multiple races)
mark b wrote:
First things first. People who dispute the second a lap gain in speed going from dirt/cinders to synthetic never ran on dirt!
Both Ron Clarke and Seb Coe ran plenty of races on both cinders and synthetic and both are on record as saying it was about 0.5.
Clarke in his book, "Talking Track" said that the difference over 2 miles was worth "4 to 5 seconds" and over 6 miles "15 to 20 secs".
He clearly understood the concept of the longer you ran on it, the more the aggregate time it lost you per lap.
4 to 5 secss for 8 laps is worth 0.5 to 0.6sec per lap.
15 to 20 secs for 24 laps is worth 0.6 to 0.8 per lap.
Based on this 4 laps would be worth 2 secs.
Coe also said in the Supermilers documentary when asked by Bannister, that a cinder track would be about half a second slower.
Taking 9 secs off Ryun's time because it was hot and on cinders is pure fantasy. Yes he was good, but not 2 secs better than EL G, who was most likely doped.
3:33.1 is a hand time. Take off 1.75 for cinders to synthetic and about 0.7 for evening out the splits, you get 3:30.65. If it had been FAT then it would have been more like 3:30.8.
That's about what he would have been capable of on synthetic, perhaps 3:29/3:30 flat, but certainly not 3:24.1. LOL
Peer Mediator wrote:
3:33.1 is a hand time. Take off 1.75 for cinders to synthetic and about 0.7 for evening out the splits, you get 3:30.65. If it had been FAT then it would have been more like 3:30.8.
That's about what he would have been capable of on synthetic, perhaps 3:29/3:30 flat, but certainly not 3:24.1. LOL
This seems to be very reasonable to me, even 3:29 is very generous, but still realistic.