Treadmills...better, worse, or the same as the roads?

reikker wrote:

Ok, you've never switched from treadmill to road running and back in the same session.

Get back to me when you've done that. Oh, make that sub 20 5k first too, so that you at least know what jogging is.

You went overboard on this one. Next time, be more subtle in your trolling.

I trust in the elites that have used treadmills a lot, and know several at a high level who do it every week. Their use of treadmill only have a positive effect on their training.

Regarding you always running slower, I think you have to run a lot on a treadmill to really be comfortable on it. Personally I feel that doing mile repeats or similar (e.g: 8x1k) feels A LOT faster than doing them outside, really unnatural. But the lactate and heartrate is the same and I can do it faster than outside. Also easier to manage speed.

reikker wrote:

Ok, you've never switched from treadmill to road running and back in the same session.

Sorry to keep ruining your arguments, but yes I have.

Like I said, let's start with the pysics behind it. What, physically, do you think explains the difference between treadmill and road running, other than the change in wind resistance?

Hardloper wrote:

Scandinavian Fellow wrote:

But, of course, you have to do a lot of toe raises afterwards to make up for the lack of 'push' that you need to do compared to outside.

No you don't. The push is the same.

I don't really care about the detail of it, but according to Marius Bakken running on a treadmill and not doing toe raises that you wouldn't do after a run outside will make you weaker in the legs than just running outside. I don't care what the reason is, but I trust him and all the other great runners who say the same.

Scandinavian Fellow wrote:

Regarding you always running slower, I think you have to run a lot on a treadmill to really be comfortable on it.

Yes. When you run a familiar route over and over again, to the point you can do it in your sleep, it goes by much quicker. If you're new to the treadmill you can't 'zone out' like you can on a normal run. The first couple times I ran on a treadmill (I still don't often) I didn't know what to do but check my distance and time every 17 seconds. So it went by very slowly and miserably. Then there's the fact that it might be warm inside, and the lack of air movement doesn't blow the heat off you, so it feels uncomfortably warm.

The faster you run the more of a difference treadmill running feels so it makes sense that your repeats would feel a lot different. Running 8 mph on the treadmill is like running with an 8 mph tailwind, not too bad. But running 12 mph is like a 12 mph tailwind, and wind resistance is directly related to speed-squared. Those treadmill conversion charts reflect this - the faster you go the bigger % the conversion is between treadmill pace and road pace.

Scandinavian Fellow wrote:

I don't really care about the detail of it, but according to Marius Bakken running on a treadmill and not doing toe raises that you wouldn't do after a run outside will make you weaker in the legs than just running outside. I don't care what the reason is, but I trust him and all the other great runners who say the same.

I've never heard that from any other "great" runner, but I trust that it worked for him. Maybe the lack of air resistance at high speeds means you don't can't to lean forward quite as much as you would outside which could change your biomechanics (which is also why using a 1-2% incline would be a good alternative). But I've never heard any other runner talk about this so I can't imagine it's a big deal.

Hardloper wrote:

[quote]Scandinavian Fellow wrote:

I've never heard that from any other "great" runner, but I trust that it worked for him. Maybe the lack of air resistance at high speeds means you don't can't to lean forward quite as much as you would outside which could change your biomechanics (which is also why using a 1-2% incline would be a good alternative). But I've never heard any other runner talk about this so I can't imagine it's a big deal.

Also Ingrid Kristiansen. But I'll see if I can find the same conclusion from runners from other environments and nations.

He does say that the biomechanics change, in a positive way. Shorter stride with less contact time with the ground, which he means is positive for you running. At the time he wrote it he didn't much believe in changing your biomechanics other than running on a treadmill and similar (compared to focusing on technique when running...at top level that is).

For those interested in some of crazy Bakkens (he tried everything, every diet, whatever, just to keep running from being boring and to satisfy his curious mind) treadmill running:

Advocate: Marius Bakken, Norwegian record-holder in the 3,000m and 5,000m, coach at marathon-training-schedule.com

The Workout: 30 minutes to 2 hours of varying pace with quick recoveries

There are those who use treadmills. Then there's Marius Bakken. During his prime, the two-time Olympian with a 5,000m PR of 13:06 ran every single hard workout from October through April on a treadmill, except when he was training in Kenya. During summers he continued to do half of his sessions running in place. "I was never really forced to run on the treadmill," he says. "Despite cold winters in Norway it is always possible to find some stretches with bare asphalt."

If such treadmill devotion seems a bit extreme, such is the nature of Bakken. He performed more than 5,000 lactate threshold tests during his career, adjusting workout paces on the fly to match his blood results. Ever the scientist, Bakken had one favorite workout that combined elements of all the energy systems in one treadmill-specific session.

Using his current lactate threshold as a starting point (roughly 25K race pace in his case), Bakken would float up and down in speed at predetermined intervals, going as fast as 4-mile race pace while recovering no slower than his marathon pace plus 10 seconds per mile (MP + :10). While the workout teaches pace control and works muscles in a number of ways, Bakken believes the biggest gain comes from keeping the recovery portions of the run up-tempo.

"You get a flushing effect of the lactate [system] when you go somewhat down but not all the way down to recovery pace," he says.

Your Turn: Taking your most recent race results as a starting point, use a pace calculator such as the ones found at runningtimes.com or mcmillanrunning.com to get an estimate of your paces for a variety of races; then translate those to miles per hour on the treadmill. From there, start close to your 25K race pace and weave your way up and down in speed, making sure never to recover too slowly.

Bakken gives this example: 3 minutes at 25K pace; 2 minutes at MP + :10; 1 minute at 10K pace; 2 minutes at MP + :10; 2 minutes at marathon pace; 2 minutes at 25K pace; 2 minutes at 15K pace; 2 minutes at MP + :10; 1 minute at 4-mile pace; and so on. A 5K runner might do this session for 30 minutes, a marathoner for upwards of 2 hours. "You can of course make this much simpler and have some workouts with longer periods at one pace," Bakken says. "You'll be surprised how much better you'll handle this type of work after two to three workouts." Bakken advises doing it only once per month.

Running on Empathy wrote:

as far as I know, no one has yet invented a treadmill that allows you to practice downhill running.

Not so!

Just lift up the back with blocks or 2x4's, and you have a downhill treadmill.

Treadmill running is fundamentally different from running running. There is no forward drive. As well, treadmill running courts overuse injuries because each footstrike is nearly the same. I resort to it only when there is lightning. Yes, one can elevate the heart rate, but one can do that using other torture devices such as the elliptical. It just don't give one an appropriate neuromuscular stimulus, one that translates to the roads or track. The only crosstraining modalities I've ever found helpful were x-country skiing and water running. I water ran for two months when injured, and got out of the pool and ran a fast 5K. I had to give up x-cross skiing when I moved to the sunbelt from Buffalo. Best doubling I ever did was run in he morning and skiing in the afternoon. I think running outside toughens one up by comparison to gym work, including treadmills. I live in a place where people don't run outside when it rains, let alone snows. I have a testable theory: In locales where people don't run in the rain, the drive-thru line at Starbucks is longer than in rainy places like Eugene, where I grew up. Fair-weather runners use treadmills and drive-thrus.

MMLP4 wrote:

I feel like I get a better run in on the treadmill than if I were to suit up and hit the roads - especially now that it's colder and darker out.

Ya treadmills are boring AF, but I feel like I'm able to open up more since I'm warmer, and get a more quality run than I would if I went out in the cold.

What do you guys think?

p.s. I don't use the treadmill every run, just the days I miss practice because of my internship/classes and have to run in the dark.

I think this is a good idea, especially if you arrange things so that you do some sort of threshold training on your treadmill days. A treadmill is great for doing on/off workouts like 4 min at HM pace/4 min slower. Don't worry about all the nonsense about lack of wind resistance, etc. You won't be getting any resistance if you trip in the dark and get hurt, either. HM pace on the treadmill might be easier than on the road, but this keeps you from running too hard in the off-season.

You can do something like the above and increase the speed of the off periods over time. You could also do 2 min on/off at 10k pace, or 1/min on/off at 5k pace. The idea is to keep the overall effort around threshold level, whatever that means. Do two of these a week over the winter, and you might be surprised at how fit you can get.

I've not had good luck using the incline; for some reason it bothers me in way that running hills does not.

runner who professes wrote:

Treadmill running is fundamentally different from running running. There is no forward drive.

WRONG. If you don't drive forward you aren't counteracting the treadmill. You'll fall off it.

J.R. wrote:

Not so!

Just lift up the back with blocks or 2x4's, and you have a downhill treadmill.

Didn't either Bill Rogers or someone else do this to prepare for Boston?

Scandinavian Fellow wrote:

Bakken gives this example: 3 minutes at 25K pace; 2 minutes at MP + :10; 1 minute at 10K pace; 2 minutes at MP + :10; 2 minutes at marathon pace; 2 minutes at 25K pace; 2 minutes at 15K pace; 2 minutes at MP + :10; 1 minute at 4-mile pace; and so on. A 5K runner might do this session for 30 minutes, a marathoner for upwards of 2 hours. "You can of course make this much simpler and have some workouts with longer periods at one pace," Bakken says. "You'll be surprised how much better you'll handle this type of work after two to three workouts." Bakken advises doing it only once per month.

Geez, hope he could proram that all into his treadmill automatically...

Scandinavian Fellow wrote:

Regarding you always running slower, I think you have to run a lot on a treadmill to really be comfortable on it. Personally I feel that doing mile repeats or similar (e.g: 8x1k) feels A LOT faster than doing them outside, really unnatural. But the lactate and heartrate is the same and I can do it faster than outside. Also easier to manage speed.

This depends quite a bit on the make and model of the treadmill, and whether it has been calibrated properly.

Scandinavian Fellow wrote:

But, of course, you have to do a lot of toe raises afterwards to make up for the lack of 'push' that you need to do compared to outside.

Toe raises are a really BAD idea for runners, as they would tighten the calves and cause problems.

There is no need to do any such thing.

However I always run barefoot on the treadmill, which gives me much better exercise for my feet than in shoes.

Running on Empathy wrote:

But of course, nothing beats running in the outdoors and learning to deal with the elements and various geographic features, not to mention that treadmills are limited in the steepness of gradient for which you may need to practice. And as far as I know, no one has yet invented a treadmill that allows you to practice downhill running.

EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS PARAGRAPH IS COMPLETELY FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. If you live in a northern state in the winter and are preparing for a warm weather race, you BETTER be doing some training inside on a treadmill that will acclimatize you to the heat.

2. All the treadmills at my fitness center go to 15% incline. Mount Washington averages 11.5% incline and the average ELITE runs 3 minutes per mile SLOWER than on a flat course. At 15%, you would run at least another minute per mile slower.

3. You can easily put blocks of varying thicknesses under the back of a treadmill to simulate downhill running.

reikker wrote:

Treadmill running isn't the same as running outside since the belt is rolling beneath you. It will mess up your gait and give you too much vertical movement.

This is untrue. Read the research before posting crap.

reikker wrote:

DNF wrote:

You remove wind resistance and the belt "helps" you somewhat.

Correct. The belt helps moving your feet backwards.

It's crazy that people believe treadmill running is the same as outside running.

It's crazy that you can't read all the research that has been done. IT is the same thing - other than the wind resistance. The force of the treadmill belt is not pulling your leg back, it is what is causing you to stay in one place.

Hardloper wrote:

reikker wrote:

You obviously haven't ever run on a treadmill. Any dolt immediately feels the difference when switching back and forth between treadmill and outdoor running.

You obviously didn't make it far enough in physics to learn about relative motion.

Of course I've run on a treadmill. I don't make up wild gravity-defying theories about it.

That's good Hardloper. Go get him!!