Tony Reavis 'Quote Of Day' on Kenyan 26.2 success is BS.

Apparently it doesn't to you, does it? Unbelievable what a bonehead you appear to be.

1) No, they train the same way and won't get the same results.

2) Why? Because they have a different level of talent...aka genes.

3) You guys really don't know too much about running do you?

I've broken 30 minutes on the roads. I guess I should go train with the Kenyans, their way, and I'll end up light years ahead.

Over analysis can lead to paralysis, wake up people.

There were several good points on here.

Kenyans have better genetics for long distance running than Americans. Hard to argue against that.

Training in groups is beneficial. I was around in the dark days of the late 90s and there has been a great turnaround with the groups which began cropping up again after 1999.

Dedication and incentives assist in creating champions.

I think Rojo's point was interesting that he thinks the Kenyans underperform in the 1500/10000. Perhaps with the scientific training methods, access to Alter Gs/massage/supplements/modern medicine/etc like we have in the US, they could be better. This is how Ritz and Hall have been able to level the playing field with athletes who are more talented and have greater access to high quality training partners. With increased access and incentives to do so, we could clearly have more sub-2:12 marathoners, and maybe from that group, we could have more sub-2:08 guys. I guess the question is could we have a pool large enough to have a group of sub-2:05 guys emerge from that group or is that outside our abilities.

I think one of the main reasons more kids/people aren't attracted to distance running is that to do well in it, you have to be ready and willing to suffer repeatedly, in both training and racing. And I think the suffering supersedes that of most major sports, except for professional cycling. And in the US, where a life of riches and luxury is viewed by most as the only definition of "success," it's not surprising few kids want to start distance running.

I know people's heads seem to blow-off on this site when Armstrong's name is mentioned, he is nonetheless an example of an athlete with a maniacal drive to win, and an extremely high threshold to endure suffering (as do most cycling/running elites).

Focus, discipline, sacrifice, motivation -- these are not required to be successful, but having these traits greatly increases the probability of success.

I refuse to believe the East Africans are dominant from sheer genetics. 5-10 years ago, people were saying the same thing about the 5k/10k. Now we have a several athletes competitive at 5k, and one or two at 10k.The marathon? It's a different beast. It's still young. Wanjiru and Geb raised the bar and athletes' beliefs about what was possible. Americans are lagging, but there's no reason to believe there aren't 2:04 guys in training right now.And even if it were true that Africans were genetically superior, STATISTICALLY there would have to be a few Americans who could compete. Do you really believe the African talent bell-curve is shifted so far downstream that there is no overlap to anyone else? That's silly.

I believe the genetics theory, it has a lot of circumstantial evidence behind it. But it's still just a theory because we haven't identified the exact genes, or combinations of genes, that are required for best distance running, and why those genes combinations never occur outside of east Africa. Beyond that, Reavis doesn't address the fact that the ability to absorb a high tempo of training without injury is key to elite distance running. I think the Africans are training at levels that would break down other runners (additional circumstantial evidence for genetics).

Kenya has a per capita income of $1700, while the U.S. has a per capita income of about $40,000. So an equivalent prize for Americans as to a Kenya would be over 3 million dollars. Winning a marathon for Kenyans is like winning the lottery, as a result every Kenyan kid has a dream to run and win a marathon. Imagine the desire and the number of runners motivated to train in the U.S. if the marathon prize was a 3 million dollars instead of $130,000 which is the New York Marathon prize.

Of course it not pure genes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But without it, hard work will only get you so far. You have to have the ability or you'll never be able to do it. The Sell comparison was spot on and he's a perfect example. He had great genes, but not good enough to compete with the top Kenyans no matter who he trained with or where on earth. It is what it is.

Could there be some genetic advantage? Perhaps, but at this point the sample size of extremely talented US-born athletes pursuing the marathon professionally is way to small to draw any meaningful comparisons to Kenyans and about the effects of any genetic differences.

Could there be some genetic advantage? Perhaps, but at this point the sample size of extremely talented US-born athletes pursuing the marathon professionally is way to small to draw any meaningful comparisons to Kenyans and about the effects of any genetic differences.

I think it's simple. The American runner is infatuated with the idea that running is a limitless endeavor that shares a direct correlation between running fast and working hard. The harder you work, the better you'll be.

That mentality, while working for 95% of the running population, just doesn't apply to the high end of the standard deviation. They're already going as hard as they can. There is no more to give. Why does that anger us off so much and why does that always lead to being overly critical of our stars?

I think that America's problem is a simple one. Runners in America are selfish. Runners in the states embrace the lonely, hard working, anti-hero image that represents the struggles they had as under appreciated high school, college, and professional athletes. They run their butts off, speak with their performance, and humbly go back to training in their dark secluded corner of the world. Anyone else who does it differently, is glory hound jerk who doesn't deserve the talent they're born with. Galen Rupp is the devil!!!

It's what I refer to as the Chariots of Fire syndrome. At the end of the day, the frugal hard working white guy will always win against the flashy star who's in it for the wrong reasons. In our case, African's plague our sport by showing up in masses taking all the big prize money, all the little prize money, and leaving nothing left for our hard working hermits to live on and get better.

I think this mentality is a problem. Our shoe companies keep everyone separated, they limit the sponsorships that athletes could use for greater financial gain. They keep our governing body in check to make sure it doesn't affect their bottom line, and most importantly, they do this while making our athletes feel grateful they're even given a chance.

The point I'm trying to make is that we sit here and complain about Ryan Hall and Dathan because they're not winning races instead of giving them credit for maximizing their abilities. It's the biggest double standard in all of sports. As a community of people who press themselves to the max, all runners should appreciate how well they've done with what they've got.

It's no different than any other competitive sport or industry. Competition breads efficiency and profit. The more you have, the better the top gets. You'll never get that in the States until you make running a reasonable financial occupation for our younger stars to grow and you quit fostering the idea that running is the gentleman's sport that you should be thankful for.

I think Tony's dead on.

Missing the point. It's about shutting out everything else entirely and just focusing on training. Something not a lot of Americans are willing to do. Mo Farah also seemed to agree this was a major reason for Kenyan success when he spoke about his own experience training with them:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/10361777/Mo-Farah-moving-into-a-house-full-of-Kenyan-runners-changed-my-whole-attitude-to-training-and-racing.html

Mo actually does shut out most other things now and rarely sees his family while he is training. FWIG that is one of the most difficult things for him, but it is clearly working.

Bobby1 wrote:

Kenya has a per capita income of $1700, while the U.S. has a per capita income of about $40,000. So an equivalent prize for Americans as to a Kenya would be over 3 million dollars. Winning a marathon for Kenyans is like winning the lottery, as a result every Kenyan kid has a dream to run and win a marathon. Imagine the desire and the number of runners motivated to train in the U.S. if the marathon prize was a 3 million dollars instead of $130,000 which is the New York Marathon prize.

The trouble with this idea is that with a 3 million dollar prize you'll attract even more Kenyans than we're getting now and if they get the 3 million dollar prizes as regularly as they get the $130,000 ones Americans and other westerners will decide that they can't compete with the "genetically superior" East Africans and will go back to looking to make their millions in traditional American ways like starting software companies and raiding pension funds.

You can only settle the "genetic" argument by finding the actual gene or combination of genes responsible for a trait. Until you've done that you're just guessing. But if there really is a genetic component to running success there are probably more Americans possessing that/those gene(s) than there are Kenyans. We have a much larger population than Kenya and more genetic diversity but there are more Kenyans throwing themselves totally into the sport now than we have. I think Buffalo Orange has a great post here.

codger wrote:

Hodgie-san wrote:

You need to think about why they are doing it. Their hope is to make a better life for their family. You think that is wrong?

Hodgie, answer a simple question - would you have been as fast without GBTC?

That depends... happily I will never know for sure. Our loose group of runners with GBTC cannot be compared to what is going on in Kenya or even with a group like Hanson's. We got together a couple of times a week to run and travelled to many races together. Not quite the same as living together for months at a time and running twice a day together and virtually nothing else.

I think the OP wants a pat on the back for having 3 kids and 20 min 5k PR.

Good job buddy.

RuKiddingMe!! wrote:

doesn't matter what type of system africans train under, they gentically better/superior!

if you took them out of their evironment and they trained, ate, and lived like eveyone else (other eltie running countries) they would still be better....maybe not a much, but overall they would still dominate distance running...

some will never ever accept this fact, and continue to use junk science, junk psychology, and junk methods to EXPLAIN IT ALL AWAY!.....

doesn't matter if Hall and other give up their life to live and train with kenyans/africans....might make them better....but in end...the african they going to win!......90% percent of the time!

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It is a number of reasons. I don't think Kenyans are necessarily genetically better than every other race and more than Canadians are genetically better at hockey.

In the US, if you are a gifted and committed athlete, you may take up baseball, basketball, football, hockey, swimming, or triathlons before you take up distance running. Therefore, most genetically talented athletes may never even know they have great talent at distance running.

In Kenya, if you are a gifted athlete, there is a good chance you will try marathon running.

It just happened that someone saw Galen Rupp in Oregon playing soccer and it happened that he was a very talented distance runner. But how many others, if they knew, might have been great marathoners.

I remember back in the 80s, with about 6 weeks of training, my brother who was in 10th Grade, ran a 15k in 50:04. He set the state record that year for 10th graders in the mile at 4:25. a kid that he was very competitive with went on to be a 2:12 marathoner. But my brother was a good athlete at all sports and started lifting weights and bulking up to play hockey. He wasn't too fast (slow twitch guy) but was smart on the ice and got a scholarship to an NCAA school in hockey - never running again except recreationally. I often wonder what would have happened if he would have taken track seriously.

I'm sure there have been and are many stories like this.

The other big difference between the Kenyans and Europeans/North Americans is the economic factor. I think it is hard for an elite marathoner to live a normal life. It is very difficult and tiring. It is much easier for a Kenyan to commit to this than a person in a developed country.

running monkty wrote:

I think the OP wants a pat on the back for having 3 kids and 20 min 5k PR.

Good job buddy.

+1

That's a good post, but I don't know how it necessarily backs up what Tony says.

neanderthal dream wrote:

I refuse to believe the East Africans are dominant from sheer genetics.

5-10 years ago, people were saying the same thing about the 5k/10k. Now we have a several athletes competitive at 5k, and one or two at 10k.

So East Africans no longer dominate the 5000 and 10000? When did this happen?