What are the US men missing in marathon training????

George Atlas wrote:

If you don't believe that Kenyans have a genetic advantage explain to me why 18 year old Kenyans can run 13:00. Where they training 100 miles a week when they were 14 years old?

So because you can't think of an alternative, it has to be genetics? That is horrible reasoning ability. Also, you act like there is a huge amount of 18 yr old Kenyans running 13:00 every year when that's not the case.

George Atlas wrote:

Bull. People like Ritz and Hall are working as hard and just as focused on running as the Africans.

They do nothing but run like the Africans. Wake up and do a run, take a nap. Do another workout. Go to bed early.

Genetics. I think someone who is a paid professional runner would find enough motivation. And someone who has access to the best training facilities, doctors, nutritionists, coaching, etc. would know how to train. When you do everything within your control to win, there has to be something out of your control that makes you lose.

Agreed. Back in the 70s, early 80s, it was Rodgers, Salazar the whole GBTC and Athletics West group. Africans were definitely "also rans." The Brits were an incredible factor. But when the Africans joined the melee, history changed. I guess it comes down to: If an American "talent" trains 100+, and his African counterpart does likewise, who wins?

Also, what happened to the incredible number of sub-2:30 and sub-2:20 American guys who ran Boston in '82? (I think that was it.) The whole question is a tough call.

1. Genetics- white guys just cant compete physically with black men in any way

2. Africans run the marathon at 22. Americans wait until they are 30, after they are finished making all the big money from 1500 5k 10k.

3. American diet is f'ed up.

4. Too rich spoiled and pampered.

*Or black women

Quote from David Epstein:

Quote of day from the Chicago Marathon champ: "Before 2010 I was concentrating on farming and had never run before."

3 years to go from farmer to Chicago champ. That's talent.

The funniest thing about the "genetics" fatalists is that Kenyans and Ethiopians are not all that similar genetically.

And most of them forget about genetics when they find out someone grew up at high altitude, in which case, of course it was the high altitude.

And few probably know just how many Ethiopians and Kenyans there are (120 million combined) and just how few of them are athletic in any way. All of them will admit that competitive running is a vastly more popular and high status sport in EA than the US, but they don't let that interfere with their manic despair over genetics.

EA dominance of running is as genetic as US dominance of basketball.

You hit the nail on the head crabgrass!

crabgrass wrote:

1. Genetics- white guys just cant compete physically with black men in any way

2. Africans run the marathon at 22. Americans wait until they are 30, after they are finished making all the big money from 1500 5k 10k.

3. American diet is f'ed up.

4. Too rich spoiled and pampered.

Let me get this straight-- the African runner is hungrier, desires it more because of his cultural disadvantage??

Therefore he trains like a maniac, for the OPPORTUNITY to win a major marathon championship and collect some big-time cash. How many Africans are attempting to live this dream today?

When in reality, the money is in the NBA, Baseball, or NFL--

Do they not know there's more money in one game of baseball than some of the races they win?

... OH WAIT! They are NOT genetically "constructed" for those sports in order to earn the real cash that would remove them from their difficult environment!

Genetics fool. Period.

Start running the marathon at the NCAA level, like the NAIA. Or let college runners keep prize money from road races.

That may not be the best example, but if you think the role 0f genetics in making a super elite marathoner is negligible, address the observation that 99.9% of top Kenyan runners are Kalenjins out of 41 or so other tribes and with Kikuyu.

Some facts:

(1) Kalenjins are the fourth largest ethnic group in Kenya after the Luo, Luhya, and Kikuyu.

(2)Although most Kalenjins live at high altitude, there are other Kenyans (although a smaller percentage) who live in some of those areas like Eldoret and other high altitude areas. Moreover, there are other high altitude areas, where athletes like Ndereba, and Sammy Wanjiru came from.

(3)Running to school was a common thing for all Kenyan tribes especially if you lived in more rural areas (I ran about 5 kilometers to and walked 5k back home but can't even break 18min).

(4)The motivation to earn $50,000 (Ksh 4.2million) is same for every Kenyan and not just the Kalenjin.

That smells fishy wrote:

EPO.

This and I have not read the rest of the thread yet...

It is all about whether those with the most genetic potential end up deciding to run marathons.

The U.S. probably has several hundred Rupps and Ritzenheims, but most of them don't run. My guess is that in certain parts of Ethiopia and Kenya there is a much greater chance that someone with potential will end up running marathons.

Anyone who runs under 2:10 is a genetic freak. Anyone who runs under 2:05 is a bigger freak. I think that the U.S. probably has more of those genetic freaks than either Kenya or Ethiopia (even if the U.S. has a lower %, it should have more in absolute numbers, because the U.S. is 8 times bigger than Kenya) but most of them probably do something else besides run 140 miles a week.

As has been said many times before, there is a huge financial incentive for the Kenyan and Ethiopian runners. So the talented have every reason to run 140 miles a week and people have every reason to run enough to see if they are talented. In the U.S. that is not true. The best marathon runners make what--maybe $500k a year. In the U.S., if you want to make that money, it makes a lot more sense to get a computer science degree and move to San Francisco than it does run 140 miles a week.

In comparison, I bet the U.S. does a pretty darn good job of identifying football and basketball talent. If you live in Texas and run a fast 40, you will find your way to the football team. There probably is not much missed talent with these sports.

I'm stealing several points from Malcolm Gladwell, David Epstein, and the 500 other threads on this exact topic that have appeared over the years (I'm not complaining; I, like many people who frequent this site, love to make the same arguments over and over again).

Still ran it... regardless.

Bad Wigins wrote:

EA dominance of running is as genetic as US dominance of basketball.

After a quick wiki search: "the NBA in 2011 was composed of 83 percent non-white players, including 78 percent black".

I'm sure genetics has absolutely nothing to do with that statistic.

So when or if Rupp becomes the first non African to run under 2:04 on a legal course then what? To easy to say genetics so quickly and not look at the training. Alberto and Bill were running what Ritz Ran today in the 70s and 80's. I think we should be asking ourselves if it was smart to have Ritz running 13:09 in May when all he seemed to talk about in each interview after each race was that it was all building up to Chicago.

DOLLAR BILLS ANYBODY wrote:

Case in point, as marathoners, the only difference between Teg and Craig Leon is Teg makes over $100k a year, got $50k for appearance, and had 2 private rabbits for him.

Craig makes zero money from running and I can only hope he had a couple nights hotel and a free ticket to the pasta dinner the night before.

Teg isn't make that money based on his marathon resume doofus. He has put down the times on the track to earn what he is getting paid.

What would Bill Rodgers have run at Chicago with pacers, perfect conditions and optimal training... 2:06?..2:07?