HSer Ben Saarel runs 8:49 at 4,500 feet of elevation

Let me say that I'm still more impressed by this run than by the 8:45 2 mile. When I say 4 seconds, it's probably more like 4.5, so technically this is already worth 8:44 high, or about 8:48 flat in the 2 mile. That said, he basically ended the race for everyone else around 1200 in, so he didn't exactly have anyone pushing him, but still managed to run a big negative split (4:28/4:21) while the few guys that were close fell off.

Also of note is Conner Mantz in 4th. Kid ran 9:14 as a Sophomore. I run a bit with his coach, who is one of the most unbelievably meticulous and carefully planning HS coaches I have ever heard of, so I've gotten to hear a lot about his training. This kid is an absolute machine. If I had to bet, I'd put money on Conner winning either NXN or Footlocker in 2015.

(Make that 2014, when he will be a senior).

I just noticed that people are failing to realize something with that 10-12s NCAA estimate. That's considered to be the average increase in time for a generic NCAA runner, regardless of acclimation. Most people will suffer more than someone like Saarel, given a lack of acclimation. The Daniels conversion I'm referring to (4.5s) is for people who are very well acclimated. If a local from Arcadia came out and ran 8:49 in Provo, that would legitimately be worth high 8:30s for them. Saarel lives higher than 4500', so he's well acclimated and doesn't lose as much. Either way, sick sick race. All that he really needs is to be faster than everyone else to win. Regardless of whether he can run 8:40 flat (8:37 + 3 seconds for 2 mile from 3200) or "only" 8:45 at sea level, it's good enough to win.

I live and train at 7000 feet and I run 15 seconds per mile faster at seal level than I do at home. I'm talking about when I do fast mile repeats. I think a 2-mile race at 4500 feet is worth at least 10 seconds for a conversion, maybe more.

Some years ago I moved from Seattle to Park City. I trained in Park City for about 6 months, then moved down to Salt Lake City.

Before I moved from Seattle I was in Salt Lake City for a job interview. I noticed the altitude and was struggling a bit.

I noticed the altitude when I lived in Park City but eventually got used to it (I was probably running slower but I did not feel like I was dying all the time).

When I moved down to Salt Lake City I was feeling awesome all the time and running great times for long training runs. I did a few track workouts and was hurting bad. But for regular tempo runs I felt as though the altitude was not affecting me.

Then I went home to Seattle for vacation. I felt super strong, was running about 15 seconds per mile faster, and found it hard to get tired.

I would predict that Saarel would run at least 10 seconds faster at low altitude. I hope we get the chance to find out later this year.

was this in a high school only race? either way, he was leading after 1200m and so had no one pulling him along, so you figure that he is definitely good for mid 8:30s or better at sea level and drafting. impressive year for distance runners. and don't forget that burcham. he may not be having a good year but that talent will still be there next year and he won't be hurt by not maximizing his talent as a senior.

The splits for the entire meet (800 and up) are at http://biomechanics.byu.edu/lapsplits

Raptured wrote:

I live at almost exactly 4500' in SLC. I haven't raced a hard 2 mile anywhere in a long time, but mile repeats here, for example, are at essentially the exact same pace that they would be at sea level, maybe 1 second slower. Any serious local runner would laugh at you if you tried to spot someone 10-12 seconds for a 2 mile here.

Unfortunately there are multiple serious runners who would spot someone 10-12 seconds as well as many exercise physiologists and the NCAA. But hey rapture you can keep believing in what you want.

In the spirit of Nacho Libre's sidekick. I believe in science, so 10-12 seconds it is.

Well said mr. craptured.

Just a word on conner mantz. I watched him race over the weekend. He obviously has some amazing talent. But the kid races like a tard. He needs to be de-pre'd before He will do anything amazing. Still a sophmore so has plenty of time to learn how to race, we will see what he does sometimes people flat line, I hope his coach better prepares him to avoid that than he does for race tactics.

Well I want you all to know that I live at 4500 feet and I know most runners I took a poll and we all feel that 4 seconds is the most we would give anyone for altitude. Anything more than that would give us diarrhea because of the absurdity.

Ah, nuts don't go back into the altitude question again. There is a reason smarter people looked into this ages ago and came to a solution with their altitude charts. It prevents little terds from making up times and gives people a fair estimate of their accomplishments for running in more adverse conditions, such as having less O2.

Lets not re-enact the civil war, the union won! No use debating the conversion it is pretty straight forward.

Congrats also to Sarrell for running a 1:51 800m. This kid is sick!

What do you mean that Conner mantz races stupid. Is he one of those kids that has no sense of pace and just tries to take it from the gun?

ha ha de-pre'd

Great runner but the philosophy of run harder and harder= running better doesn't work. It is good for the newbies who don't know how to push themselves, but for the more advanced runners it is a sure way to over-train, get injured, plateau and not win gold medals. Training and racing smart is key. Great expression I will have to tell my team about that.

If Connor Mantz just let up a little in the first mile the kid could have been a low 8:50 guy by now (as a soph). He did the same crap @ Arcadia and still ran 9:04! Imagine if he ran even or negative splits.

Raptured wrote:

I live at almost exactly 4500' in SLC. I haven't raced a hard 2 mile anywhere in a long time, but mile repeats here, for example, are at essentially the exact same pace that they would be at sea level, maybe 1 second slower. Any serious local runner would laugh at you if you tried to spot someone 10-12 seconds for a 2 mile here.

"Serious local runners" might laugh, but only because they have little meaningful information about the issue. Anyone remotely familiar with NCAA or high-level high school track in the west would laugh at you for suggesting that 4500 feet slows a person down by 1 sec/mile.

For example, Zach Perrin, Adam Peterman, Troy Fraley, Makena Morley, Paige Gilchrest and Chris Herrick are good Montana HS runners who all went to Arcadia this year. And all ran lifetime PRs in their one sea-level race of the year, right at the beginning of the season, in times that they have not subsequently come within 15-20 seconds of back in MT (sometimes running lower than 4500 feet).

All of these people have grown up at elevation.

At Montana State University (4800 feet) I have never seen any of the top distance runners run a PR at home, or even come close. They get many, many races at 3000-5000 feet and only 1-2 per year at sea level. Guys who can run 8:50 in the steeple rarely get under 9:15 in Bozeman. Guys who can break 8:40 have never run under 9:00 at home. Low 14 5,000m guys very rarely run faster than 14:45.

This happens year after year after year. If you don't think 4500 feet slows a 3200 down, you simply aren't paying attention.

But to return to the OP's point.. I watched Saarel's race on Flotrack. Agreed, the kid is a machine.

Raptured wrote:

I live at almost exactly 4500' in SLC. I haven't raced a hard 2 mile anywhere in a long time, but mile repeats here, for example, are at essentially the exact same pace that they would be at sea level, maybe 1 second slower. Any serious local runner would laugh at you if you tried to spot someone 10-12 seconds for a 2 mile here.

"Serious local runners" might laugh, but only because they have little meaningful information about the issue. Anyone remotely familiar with NCAA or high-level high school track in the west would laugh at you for suggesting that 4500 feet slows a person down by 1 sec/mile.

For example, Zach Perrin, Adam Peterman, Troy Fraley, Makena Morley, Paige Gilchrest and Chris Herrick are good Montana HS runners who all went to Arcadia this year. And all ran lifetime PRs in their one sea-level race of the year, right at the beginning of the season, in times that they have not subsequently come within 15-20 seconds of back in MT (sometimes running lower than 4500 feet).

All of these people have grown up at elevation.

At Montana State University (4800 feet) I have never seen any of the top distance runners run a PR at home, or even come close. They get many, many races at 3000-5000 feet and only 1-2 per year at sea level. Guys who can run 8:50 in the steeple rarely get under 9:15 in Bozeman. Guys who can break 8:40 have never run under 9:00 at home. Low 14 5,000m guys very rarely run faster than 14:45.

This happens year after year after year. If you don't think 4500 feet slows a 3200 down, you simply aren't paying attention.[/quote]

This is dead on.

Except Perrin didn't run a lifetime PR at Arcadia this year. That was at Arcadia last year.[quote]sc42 wrote:

Also going to take a post to complain about the training weather we have to go through.

'Spell, Big Fork, Bozeman, etc are SO cold. Running through snow and freezing my butt off because of the weather every day during track base. Ugh.