Would anyone be interested in an outline of Salazar's training philosophy?

The Scientist wrote:

you need to understand that 1:30 slower than 5:20/mi is a big difference from 1:30 slower than 4:12/mi. for a 13:00 5K guy, 5:45/mi, give or take, will give the proper sensation for a run that will elicit regeneration and still give just enough stimulation for fitness to at least not deteriorate in between specific workouts. if you can't sustain this pace day in and day out, with some exceptions naturally, you are likely doing your specific workouts a little bit too hard.

scaling to a 5:20/mi 5K guy, the equivalent pace would be...surprise, surprise, about 7:25 pace.

Salazar has actually used the 1:30 faster in reference to a 15:30 guy, too. So scaling for a 5:20 guy would not be 7:25 based on a 5:00 guy doing 6:30.

It'd be closer to 6:55-7:00ish (without calculating).

And he's explained that it will take 6-8 weeks to break through the fatigue that will come as a result of speeding up those easy days. Galen goes through the same thing every year until he "breaks through".

malmo wrote:

When did I say that Mo and Rupp cannot run 50 point?

That's not what he said, he said:

"Maybe much faster even though Malmo says no way."

So apparently he thinks you've said that they can't run FASTER than 50 point. I'll leave that to you to confirm or deny.

We've always been told to do our easy runs by feel and if anything to err on the side of caution. If you read what many older runners say on these very boards about training errors they'd like to have back, many say they would slowed down their easy days. Salazar is Salazar and his ideas cannot be dismissed, but is this to be taken as a paradigm shift?

mgm wrote:

We've always been told to do our easy runs by feel and if anything to err on the side of caution. If you read what many older runners say on these very boards about training errors they'd like to have back, many say they would slowed down their easy days. Salazar is Salazar and his ideas cannot be dismissed, but is this to be taken as a paradigm shift?

Everyone has there own style, and while some people respond better to slower easy days, others can take them a little bit faster and get more of a benefit. Salazar's word isn't law, but it brings a new approach to the table that has caused an increase in performance for some of the top runners in the world.

Great work, now do Jerry :)

Don't forget this!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323550604578412913149043072.html?mod=wsj_share_tweet

FYI

This past weekend the Salazar crew did sets of 1600, 1200, 800, 400. Not sure the rest or the intensity. Mo and Galen did 3 full sets of this, Levins 2, and Centrowitz 1.5.

NOP follower wrote:

Alright after seeing mostly positive feedback on the idea, it seems like it would be a good idea to release the outline to you guys. I already had it made, but just wanted to make sure there was interest first. I can tell you with full honesty that this outline has no false information, and it was all gathered from videos and articles on the internet that deals with Salazar and his training. So with that, here it is:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X39DkBjgRfu4GV0LimxUbb2I-W_maLbfqhb9Gk3nunA/pub

Thanks for the Pose

Some of this stuff is quite reminiscent of Daniel's running formula.

Here are some differences though:

- Daniel's formula really seems to turn one into a rhythm runner.

- Salazar is BIG on working top end sprint speed. a note on this is that it is clearly faster than what Daniel's states as the repetition pace

- Salazar is Gung Ho about form

- Easy Pace - Salazar is emphasizing not too slow where as the running formula is stating slow down if you have to.

- 2 steps forward, 1 step back for recovery - unless I missed it, I have not seen a recommendation in the running formula about recovery weeks. Then again, a decent runner would understand the importance of recovery weeks and would definitely make that tweak in the program (one Jack himself would very well understand)

Here is how I picked out the comparison:

- 2 weeks off, 2 weeks easy, 2 weeks moderate - very comparable to Daniel's phase 1

- 4-5 weeks of gradual build up - I assume this is where he is working on the runners economy - sprints, longer intervals and tempo running wouldn't be too hard here. similar to phase 2

- 8-10 weeks of hard work - basically where the workouts get really tough and there is am emphasis on getting everything you can out of workouts. Daniel's is similar in phase 3 with the hard interval work, but Salazar allocates more time to this.

- 4-5 weeks of taper, and really reduce quality within 2 weeks of goal race - back to tempo running it seems - comparable with phase 4 of Daniel's

did Salazar get the basics off of Jack Daniel's, and then make numerous tweaks to develop top athletes?

RunWild wrote:

did Salazar get the basics off of Jack Daniel's, and then make numerous tweaks to develop top athletes?

Or he got this from anywhere else in the world. Jack Daniels isn't the only guy to have discovered:

Recovery, then

Building/transitioning into harder work, then

Hardest workouts, then

Taper and race

I mean, isn't that the most intuitive and obvious progression? Is there any other way to periodize?

If you can manage something like that, go for it. I'd look at it.

RunWild wrote:

did Salazar get the basics off of Jack Daniel's, and then make numerous tweaks to develop top athletes?

No. Read some more training literature before you try to be clever.

Even you admirers have to aknowledge that central to his training philosophy is the use of thyroid meds. Has been since he was still running himself. But hey, lets focus on how he corrects thumb placement, kicking with your head slightly leaning forward. What a genius.

anglo genetic advantage wrote:

Even you admirers have to aknowledge that central to his training philosophy is the use of thyroid meds. Has been since he was still running himself. But hey, lets focus on how he corrects thumb placement, kicking with your head slightly leaning forward. What a genius.

This thread was not meant to be about drug allegations, so go somewhere else if you have nothing to say about the principles themselves. I am not saying that the NOP athletes do or do not partake in illegal/unethical practices, but those comments have no place in this thread.

malmo wrote:

When did I say that Mo and Rupp cannot run 50 point?

You said that today's top 10k runners could not run faster than 51 for the 400, despite the top 5k/10k races (many of them) being closed out in 52-54, some even in 51-point. I would have to search for it.

Now, I am generalizing and extending today's top 10k runners to include Mo Farah and Galen Rupp (for the obvious reason that they won the top two medals in last year's global championship longer 10k event), but there seem to be 40-60 guys over the last 20 years that are as fast as Galen Rupp at 5k or 10k and should be very close to his speed for 400m (whatever that is) or faster.

I will be the first to say that I don't know how fast someone can run for 400 without them making a real effort at it, but since I have seen so many top 5k or 10k runners also running 3:36 or faster at 1500m, and 27:30 types running 1:50 for 800m ... how can we be so sure that the 26:15-26:50 types are slower than that?

It looks like so many of the greatest 5k/10k runners of the last 20-23 yrs have almost all run great times for 1500/2k/3k and if someone like Tergat could run 7:28 a year before he ran his all-time best for 5k/10k ... that is faster than every distance runner on earth before 1992.

I know it is not linear, and I know that it has been EPO that has distorted this relationship, but if someone like Mourhit can run 12:49/26:49 and Tergat can run 12:49/26:27 that is 2 seconds per lap faster than than yesteryear's fastest like Nyambui, Wessinghage, Mamede, Rono, Kunze, Viren, Foster, Puttemans, etc. ... then I believe they are faster over 400/800 as well.

I could be wrong and I realize that even if ONE or SEVERAL top 10kers were to run 48-something in a real meet, that it would not prove anything, just that those who did it could do it, but I think you were underestimating what those who close races in 52.X-55.0 could do for an open 400.

anglo genetic advantage wrote:

Even you admirers have to aknowledge that central to his training philosophy is the use of thyroid meds.

NOP follower wrote:

...those comments have no place in this thread.

Rubbish, this thread is about "Salazar's training philosophy" so it's got to have comments regarding TUEs, thyroid meds, suspect medicos, labs, equipment aids, etc, etc just as any "single training document" would.

"I was thinking of looking through a number of sources to find out what Alberto Salazar's training philosophy is, and then put it all on a single document."

newname wrote:

You said that today's top 10k runners could not run faster than 51 for the 400, despite the top 5k/10k races (many of them) being closed out in 52-54, some even in 51-point. I would have to search for it.

Please do.

Rubbish wrote:

Rubbish, this thread is about "Salazar's training philosophy" so it's got to have comments regarding TUEs, thyroid meds, suspect medicos, labs, equipment aids, etc, etc just as any "single training document" would.

Listen. I made this thread regarding Salazar's training philosophy, you can take it or leave it. What are you trying to accomplish by saying the thyroid medication has helped there performance? The training principles are still valuable, and are more advanced than anything you've ever done. Bringing up thyroid meds means absolutely nothing.

NOP follower wrote:

... saying the thyroid medication has helped there performance?

Yes.

Salazar's use of hormone therapy is absolutely relevant to this thread. His runners run hard every day. They can recover because of the hormone therapy. Also, his runners race and then do a training session after, e.g. Rupp ran 3:50 for the mile followed by a 4 mile tempo run cut-down from 5 min to 4:30, followed by some 150m sprints. Let's see him try this without the hormone therapy! Before Rupp was on hormone therapy, when he was in college, he struggled to even break 4 for the mile. Salazar sent him everywhere to run it, but Rupp could not handle the fast pace and would always fade.

If you train that hard your system can't recover naturally. Clean runners need rest days. Bowerman knew years ago that the human body needs hard days followed by easy days. Salazar's athletes use drugs to recover!