This was done at 4,000 feet
This was done at 4,000 feet
ventolin^3 wrote:
interesting
i reckoned ryun was low-45 on '70s synthetic off this rain-sodden 20 yard chase in a 46.9 440 after running a WR calibre mile
( 3'55 on soggy track
WR was 3'53-jazy on dry
ryun ran 3'51WR soon after
in all probability, ryun had already run the mile WR before this relay)
when just 18 & 1y+ from his incredible late-'67 peak
http://kuhistory.com/articles/ryuns-run/nijel may just approach ryun's '66 speed - even in london
no way matching his concomitant mileage/crushing mile ability
nijel - 1'41.73
ryun - ???
_________________________________________________________________________
Are you drunk or something? This babble barely makes sense.
So how can I argue when you simply say BS to any quotes from coaches of these athletes telling you how much mileage they did.
Just because a good 800m runner does good mileage, does not necessarily mean they will run a fast 1500. It's not that simple. The mileage will often help them at 800m, but wont make them a great 1500m runner (especially a 400/800 type)
You can find the training for most of the best 800m runners in history. Only Amos has nothing written about his training. Bucher's PR's in the longer distances would tell you he must have done some decent mileage. He ran fairly quick 5000s and 10,000s.
800m Coach wrote:
So how can I argue when you simply say BS to any quotes from coaches of these athletes telling you how much mileage they did.
I seldom do, but here I have to agree with Ventolin. You didn't cite any credible sources for the mileage you postulate for Cruz, Kaki, Rudisha, Coe or Bucher. For Juantorena you have one source that contradicts everything else that is known about Juantorenas training. You simply cannot run 140km in base training and still be a 44,x runner in the summer.
You really are the most arrogant knob on these boards.
How can you call someone an idiot for quoting an athlete's coach about their training regime. You deem to have a better knowledge of Cruz's training than his own coach? That makes you the idiot.
You seem to think that just because an 800 runner does the training of a 3:30 1500 runner that this will make him run a 3:30. That is a stupid claim. Cruz ran 3:34 because he clearly didn't have the natural endurance of a 3:30 runner. If it were just a case of training like a 3:30 runner then every 800 guy that is sub 1:44 would be running 3:30.
And all this crap coming from someone who thinks Ryun could run several seconds faster than the top doped guys from the 90's and that Aouita ran 11.7 for the last 100 in his race against Cram in a 3:29. LMAO.
Ventolin is stupid wrote:
800m Coach wrote:So how can I argue when you simply say BS to any quotes from coaches of these athletes telling you how much mileage they did.
I seldom do, but here I have to agree with Ventolin. You didn't cite any credible sources for the mileage you postulate for Cruz, Kaki, Rudisha, Coe or Bucher. For Juantorena you have one source that contradicts everything else that is known about Juantorenas training. You simply cannot run 140km in base training and still be a 44,x runner in the summer.
So Cruz's own coach is not a credible source? What do you want, a hand written signed letter from god?
As for Coe, both his father in books and Coe himself in interviews have made it quite clear he did a lot of mileage during base phases. He just didn't do as much as was the then current practice all year round.
Top 800 guys have to get a decent amount of mileage in. Not as much as 1500 guys, but certainly 60 miles plus. Those like juantorena, wanting to compete on the circuit over 400 as well, which doesn't apply to any sub 1:43 guys, would do less.
Vent my old chum you seem to have a frightfully simplistic view when it comes to flat 400m speed and then the potential at 800-1500m. You say things like if Juntarena was running 20+km a day with his flat 400m then he should have run 1:39 or something daft. Why? Using that logic then all we need to do is get Bolt running 70mpw and he can probably run 3:20 for 1500m surely? Just because you're fast and run big miles doesn't mean you should automatically be able to run a certain time. It's about specific endurance. Running 44 for 400m and training 20km a day is completely different to running back to back 400's in under 50 seconds. Just because it doesn't add up on your computer doesn't make it wrong.
Computer says no.
ISBN wrote:
So Cruz's own coach is not a credible source?
Give me a link to two different websites, books, or newspapers where Oliveira says that Cruz ran 10 miles a day in base phase.
That is the definition of a credible source, not it is so, because I heard so
Maybe not wrote:
Rudisha's reign is under asssault
LOL. Are you a Diamond League meet promoter?
Amos is amazing and has upside, but let's not get carried away. Yet.
jjjjjjj wrote:
It seems to me that the issue in the United States, where we have historically had an excess of 400m runners between 44 and 46, yet few who seriously try to convert to the 800m, is that when you are that fast, you do not want to do the very hard and different work of aerobic training for the 8.
Have you ever trained for the 400?
toro wrote:
Yes.
Juantorena ran 44.26 and 1:43.44
Mark Everett ran 44.59 and 1:43.20
But this teenager running 45.66 and 1:41.73 looks very promissing.
Rudisha may hesitate running right to the front in this year's WCs being a rabbit for Amos.
Don't know about that. 45-mid is about what you'd expect from Amos after his 1:41.7, so while impressive this isn't really a revelation or even news. Rudisha ran away from EVERYONE over the last 200 in London.
I do think that in an ideal race, London form, Amos could be 1:41-low. Yes he had pacing from Rudisha, Kaki and Aman, but he had to go by Kaki on the straight and more importantly Aman on the bend during the last lap.
800m Coach wrote:
Only Amos has nothing written about his training.
Bump this.
For one thing, does he train in Botswana, or SA?
ISBN wrote:
Top 800 guys have to get a decent amount of mileage in. Not as much as 1500 guys, but certainly 60 miles plus.
Are you joking? Solomon, Symmonds, Rudisha, Amos...I doubt any of these guys are over 60 mpw for a single week in the whole season, let alone consistently.
I bet there are weeks Solomon and Symmonds don't break 60 miles COMBINED.
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
ISBN wrote:Top 800 guys have to get a decent amount of mileage in. Not as much as 1500 guys, but certainly 60 miles plus.
Are you joking? Solomon, Symmonds, Rudisha, Amos...I doubt any of these guys are over 60 mpw for a single week in the whole season, let alone consistently.
I bet there are weeks Solomon and Symmonds don't break 60 miles COMBINED.
Here is a week of Symmonds base training:
Monday:
* AM - Lifting with Coach Radcliff + 6×100 m strides. + 7 mile run
* PM - 4 mile easy shake out run
Tuesday:
* AM -Workout. (intervals on and off the track usually totaling 8-10k)
* PM - 30 minute lap swim
Wednesday:
* AM - Lifting with Coach Rad + 6×100m strides. + 7 mile run
* PM - 4 mile easy shake out run
Thursday:
* AM - Light Workout (hill repeats, fartleks, or 200m repeats)
* PM - 30 minute lap swim
Friday:
* AM -6 mile run (very easy)
* PM - Hunting or fishing
Saturday
* AM -Workout (most weeks this is a 4-5 mile pace run)
Sunday
* AM -Long run (90 minutes or about 14 miles)
I count between 50 - 60 miles and some cross training.
Footnote not given, but it took about 8 seconds on google.
If you can read this long of an article, maybe you'll learn something:
There is little online about Solomon's training, but Johnny Gray himself was known to train using very high mileage. I heard it first hand from 800m runner James Robinson in 1987. But just because Johnny trained using high mileage doesn't necessarily mean he coaches that way.
The only quote from Johnny online about his coaching philosophy I've found is this:
“1500 and 800, pretty much similar. ... But the 1500, you want to do a little more mileage, a little longer intervals, from the 800; and 400 runners, you’re going to do more speed, a lot harder running, maybe more weight training for the power you need to generate to be a sprinter. So that’s the only major difference. In any of them it takes proper preparation, it takes hard work to get it done. If you train hard and you’re a great half-miler, you should be able to run a good mile, you should be able to run a good 400. A great 800 runner should be able to run at least 46 (seconds) or faster for the 400. A great 800 runner should be able to run at least 4:05 or faster for the mile.”
As with all 800m meter top coaches I've talked to and all successful 800m runners I've been in close contact with, you need mileage and a great aerobic system. It is what makes coaching 800m runners so interesting - the balance between speed, anaerobic and aerobic training - the aerobic system being the most dominant in 1:41 of all out activity.
Ventolin is stupid wrote:
ISBN wrote:So Cruz's own coach is not a credible source?
Give me a link to two different websites, books, or newspapers where Oliveira says that Cruz ran 10 miles a day in base phase.
That is the definition of a credible source, not it is so, because I heard so
Another interesting link I found is from a guy who was at a press conference for the London Games with Seb Coe
Chaps;
I met today, for the first time, my boyhood idol and all-time favourite athlete, Sebastian Coe.
The Foreign Press Association in London (of which I am a memeber) held a luncheon to discuss London's 2012 Olympic bid chances. Lord Coe, the bid's chairman, was the guest speaker.
It was a small affair and I was able to speak with Lord Coe for a few minutes afterward. (He also signed my dog-eared copy of his biography "Born To Run" and was exceedingly gracious and polite. It was a great experience and one that I won't soon forget.)
Now - to the bitter part: mileage.
As many of you know, I've aruged on several occasions that Coe's weekly mileage totals were much, much lower than assumed. It turns out I was wrong.
Coe was asked by a Finnish reporter if he was still active and fit (which, if you look at him, is self-evident: he's quite thin and looks much younger than his 49 years).
He said: "Yes, I run about 30 miles a week or so and lift weights a couple of times a week."
I asked: "How does that compare to when you were racing?"
He said (laughing) "It's quite different. I was doing about 100 miles a week in twice daily sessions back then."
I said: "As much as that?"
He said: "Well, not every week, but during the bread and butter months, I would get up to 100 miles a week. During track season, it would be much lower, of course, but I would say the average was about 70 miles a week."
Well -- that's it. From the horse's mouth, as it were, to the Let's Run board. Seb ran mileage. Lots of it.
I was wrong.
Martin
Ventolin you've got to be kidding. you want proof that 800m runners need to be cardiovascularly fit. Just ask one.
ISBN wrote:
Top 800 guys have to get a decent amount of mileage in. Not as much as 1500 guys, but certainly 60 miles plus.
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
Are you joking? Solomon, Symmonds, Rudisha, Amos...I doubt any of these guys are over 60 mpw for a single week in the whole season, let alone consistently.
I bet there are weeks Solomon and Symmonds don't break 60 miles COMBINED.
800m Coach wrote:
Here is a week of Symmonds base training:
I count between 50 - 60 miles and some cross training.
Footnote not given, but it took about 8 seconds on google.
Thanks for proving my point, you damn moron.
50-60 is less than 60, I think.
I can't find a 600m split for Amos, but it does not look like Rudisha runs away from Amos over the 200m.
Rudisha closed in 26.6.
It looked like Amos maintained the gap the entire last 200 and may have closed a smidge.
Still a clear victory of more than .8s.
Don't know about his age but I am looking at Amos' progression.
2011 1:47.28
2012 1:41.73
He ran 45.94 for 400 last year.
He may never run that fast again.
Coe ran the same time pretty early in his career and never ran faster.
Gotta think Amos has potential. Can't figure that Rudisha will front run 1:40 in Moscow this year.
Look at the history of 800m championships and see it doesn't bode well for the favorites. It's the most unpredictable event there is.
That's quite some pressure to expect a repeat from Rudisha.
When you are clearly better you can lead.
When you get closer in ability, leading gets dicey.
If Amos improves, Rudisha has to be thinking about him in the final.
Amos may be a bit more confident now that he has posted that time.
ISBN wrote:
Top 800 guys have to get a decent amount of mileage in. Not as much as 1500 guys, but certainly 60 miles plus.
I am sure most do indeed do "60 miles+", but not all. Hell, there have been world class 5000 m runners who have run around 60 per week. So if you can reach world class at 60 per week for 5k, you likely could reach world class at 800 on far less.