Why so much Lance Armstrong hate but turn a blind eye at Bekele, Geb, etc ?

Using your status and power to bully and ruin lives is worse than taking PEDS. Lance Armstrong is the Dick Cheney of sports.

american dwuggies wrote:

Using your status and power to bully and ruin lives is worse than taking PEDS. Lance Armstrong is the Dick Cheney of sports.

Did Dick Cheney take drugs to help himself be an awesome Vice President?

Just because someone is an ahole and others give to charity (and remember, Lance founded Livestrong)doesn't make either less a cheater. In the US, we tend to scrutinize a bit more, so who know what goes on in Africa?

TLW wrote:

Geb competed in the EPO era of endurance sports and ran times that only 1 other person in that era and 1 person since seriously approached (5k).

I think it's safe to assume Geb and Komen were on EPO. It doesn't make them bad people, it's just a reality of that era, especially before the EPO test.

And now marathon runners are running amazing times and track runners are not. Presumably the track runners are no longer doping. But the marathon runners are? What do they know that the track runners do not?

The bullying put him into a league of his own.

DontFeedTheTroll wrote:

And now marathon runners are running amazing times and track runners are not. Presumably the track runners are no longer doping. But the marathon runners are? What do they know that the track runners do not?

Another post from someone who didn't follow the sport in the 90s.

Marathon RACING has changed.

In the 90s it was 'respect the distance' and 'don't hit the wall'. Now it's a kamikaze style of racing where guys go out and try to hit 2:04 or blow up.

One main point you fail to bring up is that MARATHON TIMES HAVE CAUGHT UP TO 5K/10K RECORDS.

2:03:38 is equivalent to 12:41 for 5k as per McMillan calculator, so actually the marathon record is below 12:37 in terms of performance via the calculator.

12:37 is equivalent to a 2:02:56 performance.

It's tough. Track Times are slower now than over the period of 10-15 years ago. There is bad pacing but also no one going for the times,except Rudisha. I never throught they were on drugs at the time bit the longer it goes on without others getting close, the more you start to wonder. I am still leaning to thinking most were clean.

The marathon has changed but I think the number of 2:04s is deceptive. So much of that is attributable to organizers' turning marathons into track time trials (Rotterdam, Berlin, Frankfurtt and Dubai). Those marathons are boring. also, for that reasom, the marathon world record does not mean much to me. Winning the majors is the sign of greatness. Haile G was a better track runner than marathoner.

Haile was a better track runner because he was young and never did the marathon seriously when in insane 12:37 shape (I know he ran one at 14).

Geb ran a 2:03:59 marathon at "35" years old (really older than that).

Put young Haile, when he was running 12:37 (and on EPO) in the marathon with pacers and you get insane marathon times.

If Geb was using EPO to get sub-12:40 prior to 2000, how do you explain 02:03:59 in 2008? That time is entirely consistent with sub-12:40 ability, was run after 2000, and during an Olympic year when he would have been subject to out-of-competition testing as a member of the Ethiopian squad.

TLW wrote:

Jeff, what do you think about all the women's distance world records? The 1990s had some really fast women!

Yes, most of them in two track meets. In one country.

TLW wrote:

Haile was a better track runner because he was young and never did the marathon seriously when in insane 12:37 shape (I know he ran one at 14).

Geb ran a 2:03:59 marathon at "35" years old (really older than that).

I know you probably know that Haile never ran 12:37. And you're right, he's several years older than his listed age.

TLW wrote:

Put young Haile, when he was running 12:37 (and on EPO) in the marathon with pacers and you get insane marathon times.

How could you KNOW this without having been there? This isn't like the Chinese who went from promising juniors to the fifteen seconds faster than anyone else ever at 3000m and then never ran that fast out of their home country. This is someone who raced (and still does) all over, and didn't pack it in years ago when new stringent testing methods were announced (unlike some who did).

GenericID wrote:

If Geb was using EPO to get sub-12:40 prior to 2000, how do you explain 02:03:59 in 2008? That time is entirely consistent with sub-12:40 ability, was run after 2000, and during an Olympic year when he would have been subject to out-of-competition testing as a member of the Ethiopian squad.

12:37 is equal to 2:02:56.

But I get your point, which is valid. Doping didn't stop in 2000, but was blatant and obvious pre epo test (before 2000).

Haile is a star of the sport and those stars are protected. El G, Michael Johnson, Haile...all clean right?

Again I ask the question how do you guys feel about Komen, but also how do you feel about El G since it's the same situation; athlete running times that 15 years later are untouchable.

You are right, I keep writing 12:37 when it's 12:39. But you understand my point.

To correct myself; 12:39 = 2:03:16 equal.

Sub 12:40 (and 3:26.0) will come again when a new generation of EPO is out.

Pre-EPO test times were run on EPO and since then we've seen a slow down. Pretty simple. That's a fact. The all time lists do not lie and the date of the EPO test being released won't change.

I'm stated my point and we've had a good debate. I don't think I'll change your opinion and you won't change mine.

To everyone else, think critically and remember 5 years ago we had 10 page threads on how Lance was clean.

i can understand tlw´s argumentation. many, many athletes talked about the 90´s as a very dirty era. on the other hand i don´t know who is a cheater.

remember the armstrong case: it all began with questions and rumors and those who tried to get to the bottom of armstrongs incredible performances first in the years of 1999 or 2000 were in serious trouble: the public really believed in his miracle story and armstrong reacted in a way - well, you know.

remember also the frustration of doping controllers: a lack of specific methods for all epo variants, camouflage tactics for epo use, a lack of money to control all athletes also off season when they train somewhere in the bushes...

the results of african distance runners were and are seen as a product of extreme hard work and a real will to suffer (like armstrong). have a look at what kisorio said.

TLW wrote:

12:37 is equal to 2:02:56.

Haile never ran 12:37, and the equivalence is only from one particular predictor, which cannot take into account the 10 year gap between the two times.

But I get your point, which is valid. Doping didn't stop in 2000, but was blatant and obvious pre epo test (before 2000).

Interesting, I wonder if you even realise your error? Do you know what the logical fallacy "begging the question" means? Basically, you have assumed the correctness of your initial point and are now using that assumption to further your argument. You need to go back and prove your initial claim before moving forward.

Haile is a star of the sport and those stars are protected. El G, Michael Johnson, Haile...all clean right?

This is blatantly false. This thread was initially about Lance Armstrong, a far, far bigger star than El G, Geb or even Michael Johnson (probably bigger than all three put together). Armstrong didn't get protection, and that's the point about independent anti-doping agencies - they don't protect the stars because WADA et al. don't have anything to gain from hiding positive tests.

Sorry, I have to chime in one more time to correct you. Obviously everyone knew when I typed 12:37 I was meaning :39.

Armstrong was protected by the cycling federation. They covered up his positive test. The only reason Armstrong was caught was because the federal government got involved.

We can all agree on this, because no matter what you believe it's fact:

Times run 15 years ago before the EPO test cannot be approached by athletes today.

You believe it's pacing/rabbiting issues. I don't.

TLW wrote:

Haile is a star of the sport and those stars are protected. El G, Michael Johnson, Haile...all clean right?

Justin Gatlin? LaShawn Merritt?

TLW wrote:

Again I ask the question how do you guys feel about Komen, but also how do you feel about El G since it's the same situation; athlete running times that 15 years later are untouchable.

I don't believe Kim was supplying anything illegal to Komen, or to Kennedy. What makes you think that El Guerrouj's times are so untouchable? There were so many great 1500m times run when El Guerrouj was running because he dragged so many to fast times. The way he ran, pushing from 600m out after the last pacemaker stepped off, was like having a final pacemaker drawing out the pace to the finish. Since 2003, his last year leading the world 1500m list, the fastest time in the world has been under 3:30 six out nine season, and under 3:29 twice, including just last year. I think Kiprop could challenge 3:26 under the right circumstances, and we'll see if he's healthy and in the right race to do so later this year.

Sure, if you like, but the :39 : 03:59 equivalence is stronger than you were claiming, you should acknowledge that.

Not strictly true (UCI attempted to cover up the failed test, but the fact is that this cover-up was common knowledge in cycling circles. Can you provide evidence that IAAF have done the same? Evidence in this instance would be something like Emma O'Reilly's statement, not unsubstantiated rumour.), but that's my point - the IAAF couldn't cover up failed testing because they have WADA looking over their shoulder.

What is fact is that, in 2008 (with full EPO testing), Geb ran a marathon in a time which is functionally equivalent to his 12:39. This evidence of his ability to run 12:39 during the era of EPO testing means that, as stated, you need to provide evidence of failed tests and cover-ups for both races.

Do I? Where did I say that?

How is that a fact? There was absolutely no out of competition drug testing in the 1970s. That is a fact. Would I be right to say that Ron Clarke, Henry Rono, Peter Snell, John Walker, Filbert Bayi, Jim Ryun, etc., were all taking drugs to get to their amazing world record times because they could? Do you think there was drug testing at Bakersfield when Ryun ran 3:51.1 in 1967? What was to stop him? Ryun ran 3:51.1 and it took fourteen years for another American to better that time. What does that say about Ryun? That he was talented, or doped up, or both?

Since the introduction of freezing samples for later testing, more precise EPO and CERA testing and the biological passport, more men have broken 12:50 in a single season and more men have run under 2:06 for the marathon than at any other point in history. People aren't getting slower. Two men broke 1:42 last year (first time that's happened in a single season) and one of them broke 1:41.

Why wouldn't you be open to changing your mind? What's the point of learning anything if you're just going to disregard it and stick with your preconceived notions "just because"?

This board is not the authority on anything.