El G, Lagat, and our sports "Tour de France" era

Wtfunny wrote:

PS - Alan Webb runs a 3:53+ mile as a high schooler, and you seriously think 3:43+ could only be achieved by the best miler in the world on EPO?

Good point, and Webb was a 60 mpw runner (max) in HS, who wasn't far behind that 3:43 guy on that day! And didn't Webb beat another "3:43" guy (converted 3:26) that day, Bernie Lagat?

And of course, since Jim Ryun was capable of a 3:40 mile (converted from Ventolin's 3:24 1500m track/wabbit/heat/sunlight/wind/spikes/pacing, etc conversion) 45 years ago.....I'd say a 3:43 today by someone from the Land of Milers (North Africa) is reasonable. :-)

For male distance running it was the dirtiest because of EPO. Look at the times that were being run, and compare them to now. Minot just the top times, but the top 20 times each year.

I think someone has pointed the weak arguments above. I am starting to believe like classical conspiracy theorists, there are "doping theorists" who exist under the same principles; they misinterpret stuff and work with very little information to build elaborate theories that constantly change to suite any new undeniable evidence. For example, the argument is that Kenyans are cheating because there has been no out of competition testing esp. for EPO compared to Western nations like USA, which tests diligently, yet in the next sentence, they say Lagat is doping. This is classical conspiracy theory stuff, where they now modify their original hypothesis to accommodate "that Lagat lives in the West but still manages to dope somehow. Surprisingly, no one else in the West knows Lagat's methods to escape detection. How dare you question Rupp? How dare you?

I will spare you the details how this doping obsession drama ends as a rational thinker. The increased testing last year and the claims of "widespread doping" in Kenya will result in some guys being added to the 3 or so already mentioned. People will come here and say, see I told you so...but a several top guys will still not be caught e.g a guy with a top marathon time and this will disappoint and confound them and refine their theory why the top guy is not caught while others are caught. A few months will go by and Kenyans and Ethiopians will win 9/10 of all major marathons and significant amount of track mid and long distance. Doping theorist will congregate back here and on other media trying to explain this conundrum!

Can we get a list of performances under 12: 40 and 3:29 in the last 4 years?Stats guys, help us out.

RRRR wrote:

Can we get a list of performances under 12: 40 and 3:29 in the last 4 years?

A fairer conparison would be sub-3:29 and sub-12:48 (1.4% slower than the WR).

RRRR wrote:

Can we get a list of performances under 12: 40 and 3:29 in the last 4 years?

Stats guys, help us out.

There's some sound thought going on - so you're of the mindset that Komen, Bekele and Geb were/are all dopers, and they're the only 5000m dopers? 12:40, that's your yardstick?

and everyone/anyone under 3:29? Or just those with funny names?

basement lard wrote:

Track and field, like any sport, is driven by money. During the "Epo Era," it was easy to dope. The dope brought WRs which carried monetary incentives.

Great post. Morceli was a little freak of experimental chemistry. Looked like a little 80 year old old man with a walker, yet could drop a 52 at the end of a 3:30 race. Ridiculous. El G was the same exact thing, but with some decent form and the benefit of (also doped up) pacers.

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

Wtfunny wrote:

PS - Alan Webb runs a 3:53+ mile as a high schooler, and you seriously think 3:43+ could only be achieved by the best miler in the world on EPO?

Good point, and Webb was a 60 mpw runner (max) in HS, who wasn't far behind that 3:43 guy on that day! And didn't Webb beat another "3:43" guy (converted 3:26) that day, Bernie Lagat?

And you guys are convinced that 3:53 was clean because, what, high schoolers are incapable of taking PEDs? Webb (especially in HS) is not above suspicion. He was 17 and jacked like a (balding) 27 year old.

what we're talking about here is - giving gold to either a mutant or a great athlete with a diabolical sports medicine team.

you got your good drug testers.

you got your bad drug testers, carear builders

you got your good and often nieve athletes

you got your bad athletes.

very good athletes can run (hyper responders from this group can medal)

400m 46

800m 147

mile 358

5000 1330

clean great athletes can run (regular responders from this group can gold medal)

400m 45x

800m 144

mile 352

5000 1318

clean freaks can run (straight out gold comes from this group)

400m 44 high

800m 143 flat

mile 348

5000m 1310

hyper responders from this group run science fiction type times. as in 2 or 3 miles at 4 minutes a mile, or 9.5 for the 100.

to go faster than clean freak, you need to be doing something "very-special".

whether it be altitude simuation, legal pharms, illegal pharmas, blood boosting, drugs, eat raw bull testes every day, mutant yams or god knows what?

then there is the super-duper-duper freak, the person who has expresses a mutant hormone profile "naturally" occuring or accidentally modified - as in living next to a nuclear power plant - mother is on drugs, etc.

mutation "luckily" simulates steroids / epo profile. not to mention the mutant psychological profile -

guantaree - normal people don't want to dedicate life to training in this silly sport of track and field. our super mutant will most likely die early as do our big users of PEDs.

ok, when you see an ok athlete jump to super freak status, well, the odds are near zero of that happening.

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/algeria/taoufik-makhloufi#progression

you better believe it - makhloufi was on a par with el-g for a couple of months last year.

as was ramzi the og previous, though he never got the in the right race to go near the wr.

you are talking about real 145 800 and 1500 334 guys converted into freaks.

most running fans are ridiculous. We have these threads "when will we see a 2hr marathon" or "when will we see a sub 12/26 5k/10k?"

the answer is right in front of us: performance enhancing drugs. these great scientific innovations could carve out an entire new frontier for the entire sport...instead, everyone rejects these because of some arbitrary moral code deeming these chemical formulas "unethical" because they are just too good, or because they help us too much. What's the difference? EPO is naturally secreted by your body. You drink water to stay hydrated, right? Because if you're hydrated and feel a lot better, then you'll run better/faster. uh-oh...better ban water! sounds like a performace enhancer to me, and up here on my high moral pedastel I will not let that stand!

the sooner people realise there is no such thing a "doping," a "doper," or "drug cheats," then the sooner we can get these great substances unbanned so that the fast times can start rolling in and the sport can advance.

What on earth is a hyper-responder to epo? It makes hemoglobin go up. Does it go "way up" in a hyper responder? If so, are there some runners going around with hemoglobins of 25, and are you saying that would help?

There are several question marks around Lagat, notably the positive A sample, the braces in his 30's when there seemed to be nothing wrong with his teeth, and his deceptive decision to run for Kenya while applying for US citizenship. Not the sort of behavious that sits well with his "super nice guy" image he likes to portray.

I am sure that some people are cheating and will not get caught. Perhaps Lagat is one of these, or perhaps he is clean now.However, the long term benefits from EPO/Ped use at the height of his career, when there was either no test or he wasn't tested as often, aren't clear. Perhaps that is why he has been able to sustain a high level for a long time.

I still think he was dirty when running 3:26. Especially from a man who couldn't break 1:46 for 800 despite several attempts.

We're still in the steroid era given Rupp & Farah, plus Solomon's & other's times this past winter not to mention the recent PED induced rash of MLB perfect games, no-hitters, and shutouts.

I want to look at this era from a different perspective.

Big focus on world records.

But let's drop down a tier.

During this era, it was hard to find three Americans that could run 3:36 or better in the same year.

We're pulling guys from the semis to make the 2004 Olympic team to find a qualifier. The top 3 at any trials rarely contained all A qualifiers until 2008.

But Webb runs 3:30.50 in 2007 and the floodgates open.

Wheating 3:30

Centro 3:31

Lomong 3:32

Manzano 3:32

Lagat 3:32

Russell Brown 3:34

David Torrence 3:34

German Fernandez 3:34

Rupp 3:34

Robby Andrews 3:34

They're all running right now.

And we have a handful of sub 13 guys now when we had fewer 13:20 guys in the 90's.

On the world scene, 16 men ran sub 13 last year while only 10 did in 1999.

(It's hard to find good lists prior to 1999)

But of course there is Rachid Ramzi.

Most felt that he was doped and then he got popped in 2008.

Was it better testing or did he mess up his cycle?

His positive test came from the Olympic Games, not out of competition testing.

People normally do high doping in training periods and taper during competitions.

His system should have been clear in Beijing.

My conclussion is that the athletes are generally faster now except for at the very top.

The question is, assuming Geb and El G were doping as this thread suggests, would they have run 3:26 and 13:39 in today's environment and testing protocals?

Doping is easier than ever today. Webb, Symmonds, Wheating, Cain, ... proves it. Just read Victor Conte's book. NFL, USATF, NCAA, Nike, IAAF, Brooks, IOC, NBC, Sports Illustrated, etc. needs dope to make money. Don't ruin the parade.

There is certainly no proof but I do believe that doping may be easier today.

There is more knowledge. More access to information. More sources.

There is more money in the sport.

The testers start with what has been used in the past and move on from there.

The users are always looking for the next thing.

There is more financial gain in using than testing.

In fact, too many positive tests hurt the marketability of the sport and would provide less funding for testing.

Kind of an ironic twist.

I hate this arguement that these third world athletes don't have access to PED's but have access to travel all over the world to compete. Totally illogical argument.

finfer wrote:

"evidence" against el g:

--WRs that haven't been approached

--was the best in a notorious era

--many countrymen busted

--superhuman recovery

--trained in relative isolation, surrounded by his contingency

--retired (rather) abruptly

--a physiognomy indicative of HGH use (his face)

--the prize of the Prince (well-protected)

What I believe:

Yes, El G had EPO coursing through his veins. I don't consider what he did immoral. He wasn't stealing money from anybody because all the best were on something anyway. Those who weren't, wouldn't have been all that good even with the juice.

We've come too far to not approach 3:26. Nobody takes a shot because everybody knows there isn't a chance. It's simpler than we're making it. Maybe if we all pressed WADA to retrotest his samples...

hahaha that would never work!

Oh I think Kiprop could come close to 3:26. The day of WR attempts in distance -- besides Rudisha -- is over for some reason. But he ran 3:28 and made it look fairly easy. Farah is too far off 12:37, but Gebremeskel (12:46) might be able to get close, if he were going all out from the gun w/2-3 rabbits. So I don't think they're that far off, maybe just a little lazy and they don't want to try and fail. Seems like a big $$ incentive though, so I don't get it. Who knows, Rupp could be challenging the 5k/10k records if he keeps improving for the next 4 years.

High Wire wrote:

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

Good point, and Webb was a 60 mpw runner (max) in HS, who wasn't far behind that 3:43 guy on that day! And didn't Webb beat another "3:43" guy (converted 3:26) that day, Bernie Lagat?

And you guys are convinced that 3:53 was clean because, what, high schoolers are incapable of taking PEDs? Webb (especially in HS) is not above suspicion. He was 17 and jacked like a (balding) 27 year old.

Ok so Ryun ran 3:55+ in high school over 30 years earlier than El G went 3:43+ went better technology training etc.