Mary Cain and college?

quickdraw - he went to GMU - but did not finish. And even if he did, he missed out on a development experience. I know the situation well. You do not. And you will not convince me that a rigorous education at Michigan is equivalent to a part time commuter experience at GMU (even though GMU is an acceptable school). Personal development includes paying attention to far more than just running. I know this is a difficult concept for the Lets Run fanboys to accept, but reality is, well, what it is. And the financial rewards to pro running (Usain Bolt excepted) are a joke, and the sport disappoints consistently every year from a marketing perspective, wildly so.

Another great HS runner in the Northern Virginia area - Sharif Karie - now that was someone who arguably could have foregone college, and worked on developing vocational skills while running. No knock on the kid - high school was simply a different experience for him. This paradigm doesn't apply to most middle to upper middle class suburban kids - their options in life tend to argue intensively towards a college experience, even as a college degree tends to have less value and its efficacy is called into question.

stanford isn't giving her a scholarship to be a regular student if that's the route she chooses (turn pro and not race in college).

i do find it comical that people on here think that someone from bronxville with brains would even consider oregon for undergrad. not in a millions years. oregon is little different than community college to most people from bronxville. it's an ivy or stanford whether she turns pro or not. end of story.

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Stanford might actually pay for MC to go there even if she doesn't compete in the NCAA after freshman yr - being a world class athlete is pretty interesting to a university like that. For example, debi thomas, world champ skater, went to stanford while competing - I doubt she paid.

you have absolutely no idea whether she paid or not so it is beyond ridiculous that you are guessing that she didn't. she also was black and i am sure that stanford had plenty of minority scholarships to throw her way. MC is white and wealthy.

moreover, stanford is about the last place in the world that would be blown away by a world class athlete. how many reigning olympic gold medalists currently are enrolled there? compared to many of its current athletes, MC is nothing more than ordinary (she's not even close to being the top american nevermind the best in the world). you really have no idea how athletic departments and universities are run if you think that stanford would even consider plunking $250,000 for the white and wealthy MC to attend just to attend. nike likely would cover the expense but stanford sure wouldn't.

you clearly do not know the situation "well" if you think that webb was receiving a "rigorous education at michigan." i wasn't aware that he was a pre-med or physics major. michigan is a state school chock full of joke classes and majors for both the in-staters and football players.

when webb left michigan, he signed a nike contract paying him $250K base for 6 years guaranteed. if you think that making well north of $2 million by his 30th birthday is "a joke" then i really don't know what to tell you. my guess is that that is more money than you have made your entire life. it certainly was more money than he ever would have made had he not been a runner, majored in some random major and then hit the job market as a recent college grad with little to no useful skills. it's also not like he immediately went in the crapper never to be heard from again. i assume that you do know he went on to set that minor mark of the american record in the mile.

I'll stand my shaky ground. The publicity value for Stanford would be pretty good to have an america's sweetheart type of athlete go there, even if she doesn't compete. Every time she would be mentioned it would be 'and Mary Cain continues to be a full time student at Stanford..." - that is pretty good publicity.

And really - wtf difference does it make to Stanford if she runs on their XC team or not? There is no monetary reward for a Pac 12 title or national title, no meaningful prestige bump - the team will be pretty good with or without her.

Schools want athletes because schools believe having outstanding skill sets in just about anything - even running for god's sake - makes for a more interesting student body.

I disagree with athletic scholarships in general, but seems to me that if she really gets close to world class next year attending on scholarship but not paying would be a possibility.

but really, I think Nike will do whatever it takes.

I think it would a smart move for her to get an exceptional education along with her running career. In 20 years a B.A. isn't going to be enough to be competitive in most careers. It will be the equivalent to having your high school diploma. The downturn in the U.S. economy and a decade of outsourcing has caused a job shift, requiring people to get a college degree.

i agree that it's all moot because either nike or her parents will pay for wherever she wants to go. stanford as a regular student makes the most sense in terms of good training climate and being fairly close to AS.

i still am shocked that you think that being someone who is the 5th to 10th best miler in america somehow moves the needle at stanford (she has A LONG way to go before she gets in the simpson/rowbury/uceny class). you are aware that track is a niche sport that nobody follows in the US? compare that to the football team and the millions of people who fawn over someone like luck on a daily basis. stanford admissions reviews a lot of kids every year who are national or world class in their respective sports or skills. being top 10 in the mile is not that big of a deal there and the media exposure would be minimal at best.

agip wrote:

[quote]bleu wrote:

People have no idea how important college choice is to wealthy hyper educated northeasterners.

Agreed but there's some leeway, i.e. if you get into Stanford and Williams and choose Williams most people are going to "get it." You'd say you wanted the small class experience or something.

if I were Mary Cain, I'd see the world like this: Essentially any school in the country is going to be open. Based on times, her ideal training partners are actually good division III or medium-good Division I boys. But then there's that weird social dynamic as well. She actually has a tricky choice. So if I were her, I'd decide that the running career would basically take care of itself and decide based on other factors. I'd choose a small liberal arts college or an undergrad-centric ivy that wasn't Princeton.

Cal Berkeley is radical. So is Reed College, Portland (Steve Jobs), and Sarah Lawrence College, Bronxville, (Yoko Ono, Meredith Monk). They are small, and that may be a factor.

She would break 3:57 / 14:30 at Colorado which has better coaching and academics than Oregon, but it's not an Ivy.

Stanford or Princeton are the likely choices. Or a place like Berkeley or a D2/D3 school where she can run with a club with guys who train/race at her level.

Where did you read that Ajee Wilson will compete for Adidas???

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you are too easily shocked, mcgraw.

Anyway, apples to oranges. Swimmers and gymnasts and skaters are routinely world class at 17. Runners...not so much. Almost never. How many milers have been top 10 in the nation at age 17? very, very few.

Webb is the only HS kid I think think of who compares in track. I think your reasoning is faulty when you pool all sports together.

In other words, I'm sure having another olympic 18 yr old female swimmer would not be a huge deal at Stanford. But they have probably never seen a runner at that level. That pulls some weight.

(1) it's not me -- it's stanford admissions that pools all applicants together. they get apps from scores of kids national and world class in a lot of different endeavors (not just sports). being the 7th best miler in the US isn't that big of a deal when your application is sitting next to a bunch of others from applicants who are the best in the US or 7th best in the world AND who also want to compete for stanford. she might be smart enough to get into stanford on academics alone (i have no idea) but the idea that stanford is going to admit someone who isn't academically qualified and who won't compete for stanford just because that person is in the top 10 in the US in a niche sport is downright silly. moreover, she won't be an olympic runner next year when she is applying so you can toss that bullet point out right now.

i agree that not many milers have been in the top 10 in high school but do you think stanford admissions cares? it's not like people in admissions treat track with much greater deference than other sports where they get top 10 people every year and those people want to compete for stanford. ajee wilson was 11th in the 800 last year and stanford wasn't slobbering to get her in. i'm sure plummer and gallagher were in the 80s. mary decker definitely was in the 70s. it's rare but not unprecedented.

I'll end with this - I went to an Ivy and I was about 10 millionth in the country at something. Being 10th in the nation in the mile as a 16 yr old? The best US high school mid-d runner EVER? I think you are underestimating how that makes a girl stand out.

I'm done here mcgraw.

Cal Berkeley is diverse but not as radical as you assume. Univ. of Portland is nothing like Reed College. Basing an entire institution's persona on 1-2 alums is ignorant.

Jerome Kopf wrote:

Cal Berkeley is radical. So is Reed College, Portland (Steve Jobs), and Sarah Lawrence College, Bronxville, (Yoko Ono, Meredith Monk). They are small, and that may be a factor.

Well, you're correct that the National XC championships don't garner much attention.

But Cain will making her money on sponsorship. If she is able to sign a long term contract with Nike, I suspect she will be better off skipping NCAA running. As several other posters stated, that does not mean she will skip college. Like they said, she is from a well-educated family that likely values education beyond the economic benefits (her father is an MD). She has 3 Ivy league schools she can commute to should she decide to continue training under her current arrangement (rather than calling an altitude tent in Portland "home").

P.S. I'm in no way convinced that Webb would have been better off staying at Michigan. He never should have left his HS coach, who did a great job with him.

agip wrote:

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So I'll call her a 4:10 1500 girl now - I glanced through the 1500 results from last yrs DL meets - places 1-10:

Oslo: 402 - 4:08

Rome 3:56-4:06

Paris: 3:56 - 4:04

If you are right and she knocks down her 1500 by 6 seconds then sure, she is right there and could get in a meet, maybe. But that could be a stretch - that's a huge improvement, no?

But even as a 4:10 girl she could find meets to run in, if that is what you mean.

The times you cite from Diamond League highlight another problem: she'd have to be willing to compete against drug cheats. When she is forced to face this harsh reality, it'll be pretty easy for her to decide to retain her amateur status.

Fair response. I was saying ~4:08 due to this article:http://www.letsrun.com/news/2013/02/mary-cain-runs-938-88-for-2-miles-the-greatest-distance-performance-in-us-hs-girls-history/which states that her 2-mile time is equivalent to a 4:07.82 1500m. I am not trying to squabble, but I don't want you to think that I was simply taking a wild stab at her 'fitness'. IF this 4:07.82 is accurate, then 4:05 should almost be expected by next season. However, the conversion seems to be debatable.