Completely agree that they don't always put it together in every race, but...
...PSU could throw down a pretty sick time at Penn Relays this year. West/Creese/Kidder/Loxsom is quite the add-up when you look at their PRs. Having Watkins as a potential alternate doesn't hurt.
Keep in mind that indoor 300 meter tracks and banked 200 meter tracks have actually become far faster than most outdoor situations. It is not unusual in the past few years for athletes to put down marks indoor that they do not approach outdoor. I don't pretend to know a conversion, nor do I want to start that type of crap, but if Loxsom ran 1:49 or 1:50 on a flat 200 track the first week of January it would not raise eybrows. With the super fast tracks, PSU being one of them, everyone sees 1:46.9 and think 1:42 is just around the corner. It might be, but these fast indoor tracks give many false indicators of things to come. His NCAA competition may come from guys who have not run on the lightning tracks and have stayed under the radar giving the perception that he struggles. Due to the advancement of indoor tracks, Cain's 9:02 or Loxsom's 1:46 are no longer indicators that something phenominal is coming.
I see what you are trying say but I have to disagree. A properly trained athlete should run faster in May or June and outdoor not indoor. 80 degrees and clear air on nice mondo with wide turns trumps indoor air quality, tight turns on a bank. I do think folks come into indoor with great fitness but lose to the winter grind.
So - Old Coach Man - as I look down Penn State's top 10 performances in the 800 of all time and looking at performances from recent years - I see Cas Loxsom on the list with a 1:45.28 performance from July. I see Ryan Foster with a 1:46.78 from NCAA's in June. I see Sam Borchers with a 1:46.85 run in June. I see Mark Miller with a 1:47.83 from May. I also see Ryan Foster on the 1500 list with a 3:39 from July, Owen Dawson with a 3:42 from late April and Robby Creese with a 3:42 from May.
So - per your logic of being a properly trained athlete running faster in May or June would be right on the mark here as these performances are in the top ten of all time at a school that has a great history in the middle distance events.
Opinionated guy wrote:
everyone sees 1:46.9 and think 1:42 is just around the corner.
No one in the history of the world has ever thought that.
So a banked 200m track helps the 800m. With the exception of the first turn, the race is run in lane 1...not banked in lane 1. For the 200 and 400 you are right. Not 800m
george oscar bluth wrote:
Opinionated guy wrote:everyone sees 1:46.9 and think 1:42 is just around the corner.
No one in the history of the world has ever thought that.
I'm glad my exaggeration to make a point was not lost on anyone.
Bruin, there is an obvious advantage in running on a hydraulically banked track over 800. I have this discussion every January. Compare times from the hydraulic 200 meter banked and 300 meter tracks to 200 flat tracks. There is a big difference. Watch the rest of the season how many athletes do not approach their times from these facilities. It will be more than you think. I hope Loxsom is not one of them.
Check Your Facts??? wrote:
So - Old Coach Man - as I look down Penn State's top 10 performances in the 800 of all time and looking at performances from recent years - I see Cas Loxsom on the list with a 1:45.28 performance from July. I see Ryan Foster with a 1:46.78 from NCAA's in June. I see Sam Borchers with a 1:46.85 run in June. I see Mark Miller with a 1:47.83 from May. I also see Ryan Foster on the 1500 list with a 3:39 from July, Owen Dawson with a 3:42 from late April and Robby Creese with a 3:42 from May.
How did those runners do at NCAA? EOT......
What's your PR?
Older Coach Man wrote:
How did those runners do at NCAA? EOT......
Check your facts- You are wasting your time trying to explain facts to some of these posters. Cas Loxsom has been making a name for himself since the first time he stepped on the track at PSU. These people that bash him or the team would never even be in the same heat as him or the others at a meet. They like to point out that he never won at the NCAA's like it is that easy. I'm sure Old man coach has had several runners win NCAA championships.
I really don't understand why people on a running site wouldn't wish the best for all runners, especially runners in college that are 18- 22 years of age.
Fred Gwynne wrote:
Check your facts- You are wasting your time trying to explain facts to some of these posters. Cas Loxsom has been making a name for himself since the first time he stepped on the track at PSU.
Has he made a name for himself when it counts? You know the answer...... 3 years, 6 nationals, most of them he went in with one of the fastest times. Where are the results?
Fred Gwynne wrote:
I really don't understand why people on a running site wouldn't wish the best for all runners, especially runners in college that are 18- 22 years of age.
Most people wish the best for all runners WHEN IT COUNTS. the Pen State MD crew has a history running fast times on their home track then not showing up at the big dance. Epic coaching fail.
3x big ten champion in 800, 3x 2nd team all american, 2011 outdoor first team all american, school record holder in 800, part of the 4x800 penn relays winning team. I know to a great athlete like yourself if you don't win the championships it means nothing.
You could not carry his jock. Post some of your accomplishments someday so we can see how great you are.
Thanks for the stats Fred.
Do you think the program has had awesome , average or below average championship meets in the past 3 years?
Don't forget - USA Junior Champ over Robby Andrews. World Junior Silver Medalist over Robby Andrews - first medal ever for the US at World Juniors in any mid-distance or distance event for the men. USA Champs Finalist. USA #6 ranking in 2011. World University Games 4th place finisher. Three times at 1:45 in June in 2011. Significant iron issues not detected till late last year which affected his season.
How many National Championships has Greer won? He has only made the finals in 2 of the 5 NCAA meets he has been in and he was a 1:47 guy in HS. And the list can go on in regard to studs who have not won the NCAA.
The NCAA meet - where they cut down from 24 to 8 in the semi's is one of the hardest and cut-throat competitions in the world.
Every year the same argument! Show me a middle distance team that doesn't bomb on occasions - even the Kenyan national squad does. I'll concede that Loxsom hadn't been great at NCAA, but people have been espousing this opinion on PSU for years!
These are from memory but pretty accurate I think...
Nationals - All results.
2009 indoors - dmr: 9th
2009 outdoors - 800: Foster, 8th
2010 indoors - 800: Foster, 3rd; Dawson 8th; Williams 11th, Loxsom 15th
2010 outdoors - 800: Loxsom 11th; Foster 22nd
2011 indoor - 800: Loxsom 15th; mile: Foster 3rd
2011 outdoor - 800: Loxsom 4th, Botchers 9th; 1500: Foster DQ
2012 indoor - 800: Loxsom 10th (?); Creese 10th
2012 outdoor - 800: Loxsom 10th
Big Ten notable performances.
2009 indoor - 600: Williams 2nd - 800: Foster 1st; Dawson 2nd
2009 outdoor - 800: Foster 1st, Dawson 3rd, Williams 4th
2010 indoor - 600: Loxsom 2nd, 800: Foster 1st, dmr - 3rd
2010 outdoor - 800: Loxsom 1st, 1500: Borchers 4th
2011 indoor - 600: Loxsom 2nd, 800: Foster 1st
2011 outdoor - 800: Loxsom 1st; 1500: Foster 2nd
2012 indoor - 800: Loxsom 5th (?); Mile: Creese 3rd, dmr 1st
2012 outdoor - 800: Loxsom 1st, 1500: Creese 3rd
Haha, 'old coach man' should be 'old little man'. Your measures are 'awesome, average or below average'? PSU's championship meets have been way above 'below average', certainly above 'average', maybe not quite 'awesome'. So let's just call it 'well above average'. Would you agree? Of course it would be helpful to know what you call average, and what you have accomplished as coach, and whether you yourself are average or not. I'm guessing you'll just come back with a shot at PSU : )
Let's Run posters spend their lives dissing great athletes. Cas isn't the first and isn't the last who will get the business from the a..holes who post here. Rupp, Wheating, Robbie, all of them have been beat up by the lightweights who get their jollies here.
Fred Gwynne wrote:
3x 2nd team all american, 2011 outdoor first team all
What you are saying is that he went into NCAAs 6 times with one of the fastest runners in the field and finished 4th ONCE and din't make the final 5 times, giving him that dubious 3x-kissing-his-sister-All-America.