Predict my athletes 5k based on 1 x 5k

CoachB wrote:

You are trolling my original troll.

I don't think he is, photographer 13 and rths actually believe they know what they're " talking about" and you and everyone else fall in to the "bonehead" category.

Delusional idiots, ie "belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary". Pretentious, arbitrary, delusional idiots.

Running on Empathy wrote:

We had always taught that the rest period is inverse of the relative intensity of the interval.

Pace work = shorter rest, threshhold work = longer rest.

Wait. So if I want to do a tempo run (aka threshold work) I should break it up with long rest, but if I want to run 8k total at 5k race pace, I should not rest at all?

Yams wrote:

How about something like 6x1 on a track, all very controlled in 3:12, with a 90 sec walk/jog rest. The last one turned it up on the last 300 (up until then was running the same effort/pace as the others) and ran 3:05

That's a decent session

For all the 3 minute rest haters:

http://www.mariusbakken.com/training-corner/portuguese-training-rui-silva.html

Yeah, I know he sucks. Just Olympic bronze, closing faster than El G and Lagat. Plus Worlds bronze, World indoor gold, 3:30, he's pitiful and his coach should be crucified.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

http://www.mariusbakken.com/training-corner/portuguese-training-rui-silva.html

Lifted from the above link after a very quick look: "About 20 of the 40 best on the all time list in the 3000 m/5000/10000 meter as well as the steeple are from Kenya...around three times a week they run intervals, or fartlek... 3 minute running and 1 minute easy...".

So who's right and who's wrong?, dunno, but I know if you ask ten world class coaches the same question re a training program you'll get ten different answers because they'll all differ in some way, guaranteed.

Moronic wrote:

Lifted from the above link after a very quick look: "About 20 of the 40 best on the all time list in the 3000 m/5000/10000 meter as well as the steeple are from Kenya...around three times a week they run intervals, or fartlek... 3 minute running and 1 minute easy...".

So who's right and who's wrong?, dunno, but I know if you ask ten world class coaches the same question re a training program you'll get ten different answers because they'll all differ in some way, guaranteed.

Yes, but those 3 minutes hard, 1 minute recovery are done at something more akin to tempo pace. If you read the articles fully, you will note that Marius and basing his training on the Africans, aimed to keep his blood lactate under 4 mmol/L during those 3 hard 1 easy intervals. I doubt that a session of 6 x 1k at 5k goal pace could be done with blood lactate at such low levels, therefore we cannot compare the two types of sessions. Differnet purposes, differnt energy systems. I spent a lot of time on Marius's site back in the early 2000s. It was pretty influential for me in developing the system I use now.

I don't really think this is an argument on who is "right" and who is wrong. I think the argument has evolved into "Is there any place for VO2 max type intervals in the training regimen of a distance runner". Clearly, I would think that most of us would say that the answer is yes. However, I went through an entire season in 2009 without having my runners do one workout in said category. That season culminated with our top girl placing 5th in California D4.

Delete *and* from between Marius and basing.

The kid in question ran 16:38 for first at our league finals race 2 days ago. Unpushed from the gun. The kid who normally goes out fast didn't go hard early (coincidentally, that kid also ran a season best 16:49). My guy felt pretty comfortable at the end.

We are going to hit it hard this week then taper back for the section meet. Here is the basic schedule.

10/24: League finals meet

10/25: Day off

10/26: 8 x 850 tempo (the rest of the team did 800s) @ 3:00 (2:49 for 800) 1 min recovery

10/27: planned 6 x 1k at 3:15, 2:30 recovery

10/28: 4-6 easy

10/29: some sort of hill reps, 2.0 wu and cool down. Could be replaced with easier session

10/30: 2 x 2 miles tempo. 1 wu, 1 cd

10/31: 6 miles easy

11/1: 2m wu. 3 x 6 x 200 @ 35-36, focus on mechanics 1 m cd

11/2: 4 miles easy

11/3: sub sectional meet (top 10 teams advance, our team should easily be 3rd or 4th running tired)

11/4: Day off

11/5: 4-6 easy, 3 x 400 @ mile rp 300m rec.

11/6: 1.5 wu. 3 x 1k, cc loop, @ slightly faster than 5k pace, full recovery, 1.5 cool down

11/7: 4-5 easy + 3 x 300 @ mile rp

11/8: 3-4 easy

11/9: 2-3 easy + 3 x 200 @ mile rp

11/10: Section championship meet (hopefully qualify for state)

Update

Boy ran 16:32 at state. Took some time off and had a fairly relaxed December. This month, he has ramped back up to 50 mpw.

Yesterday, he ran 10 miles, with the first 2 easy then the last 2, over rolling, twisting single track, was run at slightly faster than 6 minute pace. Today, he did a short warm up then 10x200 @ 32-33 with ample recovery then a 4 mile cd.

So far, his week has looked like this

M: 1 mile wu, 2 x 2 mile @ 11:05, 10:56, 1 mile cd

T: 10.5 easy

W: lifting circuit + 10 with 8 pretty fast (I didn't tell him to go fast. He just did)

Th: 1 mile wu + 10 x 200 @ 32-33, 4 mile cd

The rest of the week will go

F: 7 ish in the hills + weights

S: 8 easy

S: 4 easy.

He will run a 10k at the beginning of Feb, just to see where his fitness is. I'm thinking sub 35 shouldn't be too hard. Overall this season, we are looking for sub 9:30 and sub 4:30 by May.

Thoughts?

'Yesterday did 6 x 1k with 3 min recovery (3:18, 3:17, 3:15, 3:16, 3:16, 3:11)'

That's pretty slow with a 3 mins recovery for someone running 16:40. Cut that down to 2 mins gradually

But the race is the best predictor and with better pacing can obviously go faster

no it's not. he's pushing the edge of v02 max here and the recovery should be 1:1 otherwise he is working too hard.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Yesterday did 6 x 1k with 3 min recovery (3:18, 3:17, 3:15, 3:16, 3:16, 3:11)'

That's pretty slow with a 3 mins recovery for someone running 16:40. Cut that down to 2 mins gradually

But the race is the best predictor and with better pacing can obviously go faster

3min recovery is an excellent ratio for any middle distance runner as I'm sure you would be aware if you had at any stage coached or at least been successful in this field. If you are working off an extremely short recovery with your intervals there is not enough point of differance from your tempo work. At what point are you working significantly above race paces?

I guess you know more than the coe's, Wilson's, cerutty's, etc of this world... lol.

Coe never had 3 mins recovery unless he was doing a flat out speed session.

yeah, but wasn't coe maximizing his potential a bit more than this kid? I'd say so. The thought of doing anything more than 200 meters at R pace sounds silly to me. This is where I am at. Perhaps when I and this kid are better, we will be able to go farther at an all out pace that would in your opinion warrant the longer recoveries, but at the moment, i would suggest a minimum of 3 minutes recovery on reps such as these.

when u say ramped up his mileage to 50mpw, was that a safe buildup. That verbiage has me a little concerned that after a relaxed December u guys jumped to quick into the xc mileage.

The mileage varried during December between 40mpw and 13. the last week of the year was the lowest because of travel during the holidays.

Correction, the 10 mile run with the first two easy and last 2 at 6 min pace should have read "first two easy and last 8 at 6 min pace". I was pretty impressed with the run

Pace work = shorter rest, threshhold work = longer rest.[/quote]

Isn't threshold pace tempo pace which has no rest. Skip the technicalities you don't get 15 mins to have a cup of tea and a bun during a race

Long recoveries is the training I was doing 25 years ago and is outdated and one of the main things I would have changed in my training

I could do 4 x 1km off this recovery in well under 3 but could only manage 16 mins in a 5km.

The longer recovery session is not bad but you need something with shorter as well

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Long recoveries is the training I was doing 25 years ago and is outdated and one of the main things I would have changed in my training

I could do 4 x 1km off this recovery in well under 3 but could only manage 16 mins in a 5km.

The longer recovery session is not bad but you need something with shorter as well

That (6 x 1k with 1:1 work:relief ratio) was the first workout we had done like that all season. The bulk of our harder running was done as tempo runs or tempo intervals with less than 1 minute recovery. We had also done quite a few hill repeats up until that point.

I wanted to get my kids a workout with some loger intervals that were slightly faster than race pace without it being too hard. We did that workout on a thursday and raced on a saturday, so making the workout more difficult would have been self defeating. Later in the season, we did 6 x 1k but brought the rest down to 2 min.

Not a very good chance he runs 9:30. Depending on his speed, 4:30 could be attainable but few 16:30 5Kers will break 9:30 a few months later. I am familiar with cross country--> track conversions, progressions, etc. and 16:30 isn't that fast and won't guarantee a 9:30.

Also, no offense, but it seems like way too much quality. A lot of workouts back to back during the season. That strategy may pay off but isn't the healthiest or most effective way to get an athlete to produce long term. It also seems like the kid runs a lot of workouts/ races at not max effort. Understandable for workouts but not for races. Several years ago (about 10), when I was 16 in high school I ran 15:58 for 5k because I wanted to run my best. This was in the district meet. Second place was 17:27. So he should always go out and perform.

Sub 35 is more attainable though. May not happen but much better odds than 9:30.