HOW DOES THG HELP DISTANCE RUNNERS?

>>why would I take ANY chance of taking something that even remotely could be considered illegal unless I was trying to get an unfair advantage?

I agree that they thought they where getting one over everyone else and that it was likely/could be be defined as illegal.But loads and loads do this,it comes with the teritory of world class.Does not make it a good thing but that is the widespread morality.

But then we come to did it work.Aiming to get advantatage/cheat is not yet an offence.

In all the literature I've looked through gestrinone has not been listed as an anabolic, usually it's termed an anti-estrogenic progesterone, similarly for norgestrel which is a THG isomer. Hence their use as contraceptives, they are sometimes listed as androgenic, if I recall correctly norgestrel is listed as a fairly weak androgen (a good selling point in an OCP!)

In support of thinittru you can't provide was doesn't exist.

So far as I know there hasn't been a connection between Jacobs and Conte demonstrated, did I miss it?

>>similarly for norgestrel which is a THG isomer

If norgestrel is a related compound to THG and Gestrinone why is is it not banned?????

Can anyone please explain this to simple farm boy .

This ref says anrdogenic properties.

In the Price hearing Catlin said this research had shown anabolic properties.Is Catlin a liar???

isn't THG that date rape drug?

nm

GHB

thinwhatever,

Dude!

Do you know what an androgenic steriod is.

So, what are you trying to claim, that androgen receptor agonists are not performance enhancing.

Once again you are spouting off about that which you obviously do not understand.

Why don't you get a textbook?

Androgenic and anabolic are terms that are not mutually exclusive.

Let me spell it out for you in the simplest terms I can imagine:

Anabolic steroids are derived from the male sex hormone testosterone. Testosterone is an androgenic hormone. In fact, and I really hope you don't need references to believe me, testosterone has anabolic-like effects, i.e building of muscle mass, increase in BMR, etc . . .

Its amazing that all of these "experts" aren't even aware of the basic facts.

By the way Phil,

A patent does not necessarily = money. This is a common misperception. The US patent office doesn't shake your hand when you recieve a patent and give you a big fat check. This may make money off of your discovery if you, 1. are allowed by your institution to start up a company to market the patent, 2. are allowed to sell discoveries to companies and then recieve compensation, or 3. work in that rare institution that markets it's scientists applicable new technologies.

Try again. As a pharmacologist, I am well aware of the "myth" of drug patent riches.

>>GHB

As it happens this has anabolic properties and is NOT banned in sport.Sort that one out then.

Perhaps they would have had to ban those raped via GHB.This would make strict liability/non analyical positives look a bit stupid.

Noticed my grammar error in my paragraph:

I meant to say "YOU may make money off of . . ."

>>Do you know what an androgenic steriod is.

Anabolic is the muscle enhancing part,androgenic is the sexual part.

Anabolic steroids where developed to provide the muscle part with minimal sex part.There is clearly a cross over in this continum but they are at different ends.Thus Gestrinone has androgenic properties but no recorded anabolic ones.

No wonder you call yourself ??????? as you clearly are rather confused.

This is getting tiring.

Thindude,

take your own advice and read more than the title of the paper I posted. Androgenic receptor stimulation does have anabolic effects. "opposite ends of this continum" what? Are you dense? The reason for calling them androgen receptors is not because agonist activation of them cause only "sex" effects (this totally depends on cell type and receptor isoform expression), but because they were first dicovered via stimulation with "sex" hormones.

I give up. You obviously have an "agenda" for this whole drug thing. You continue to argue moot points.

Later.

Here's your link to androsterone and testosterone:

scroll down to page 8

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:DoJMCe2yiyoJ:homepage.mac.com/celebrimbor/Chem110ClassNotesSet9.pdf+thg+chemical+structure+androsterone+testosterone&hl=en

They aren't equivalent either.

But why bring testosterone into it are you seriously suggesting that THG is derived from testosterone! Why not compare it with progesterone, it's a synthetic progestin afterall, its mode of action is to bind to the progesterone receptor!

I know this, as I said I know academics who have become rich via patents, I didn't say it was infallible, far from it. ;-)

>>take your own advice and read more than the title of the paper I posted. Androgenic receptor stimulation does have anabolic effects. "opposite ends of this continum" what? Are you dense? The reason for calling them androgen receptors is not because agonist activation of them cause only "sex" effects (this totally depends on cell type and receptor isoform expression), but because they were first dicovered via stimulation with "sex" hormones.

Thanks for your point.

Does this mean that when a drug has no known anabolic effect as indicated in such as Matindale that such info is incorrect.

I accept that my use of continum is not correct but it would seem that some drugs concentrate on the anabolic and some the non anabolic.In short pleas advise if androgenic receptor stimulation always has anabolic effect.

I am keen to learn,please respond.

An extra Q for ???????

Do you think it reasonable for Catlin to say at the Price hearing that the Aussie research showed that THG has potent anabolic properties??

OK OK OK. I happened to see this and felt I should respond.

Phil,

The first study, although not an in vivo model, shows that THG's "mode of action", as you put it (but is yet to be defined in vivo), is to bind to both the human androgen receptor as well as the progesterone receptor. I'm providing an excerpt from the Aussie study since it seems you have yet to take 5 minutes to read it:

"...the present study shows that THG is a potent androgen and progestin, but lacks estrogenic activity or any sex steroid antagonism. In this in vitro system, the potency of THG as an androgen and progestin is remarkably high. In the androgen bioassay, it has higher potency than the two comparator androgens, nandrolone, the most widely abused androgen in sports doping, and trenbolone, among the most potent synthetic androgens known. Similarly, as a progestin it exceeds not only the potency of progesterone but also that of its parent steroid, gestrinone. ... The biological effects of THG may be related to those of its parent compound gestrinone, a seldom prescribed 19-nor progestin used mostly to treat endometriosis (5) but also uterine myoma, meningiomas, and mastalgia (6, 7, 8). Gestrinone binds to AR and PR (9, 10) and demonstrates androgenic effects including acne, weight gain, voice change, hirsutism, as well as increased hemoglobin and bone density in treated women (11, 12, 13, 14)."

The last sentence is from where I derived the testosterone example, which has the same effects.

Thinittru,

Your first question:

The simple answer is yes. But this is where it is not necessarily a matter of understanding the science, but more as to how particular terms, like "anabolic" versus "androgenic" are used.

The term anabolic is, for the most part, utilized in scientific journals to refer to hormones/steroids which cause an increase in metabolism, i.e. raising the resting metabolic rate of a cell, tissue, organ, etc. This increased metabolism is displayed by increases in the production of complex molecules, for example proteins, which in skeletal muscle can lead to increase in cell mass and contractile force. This then can be seen in animals/humans as hypertrophy and weight gain. The catch is that most anabolic steroids induce this action via their binding to the human androgen receptor. This is why natural molecules like testosterone, and synthetic ones, like nandrolone (or even THG), are referred to as anabolic steroids, androgenic steroids, or even anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS). The binding affinities of steroids/hormones to the steroid receptors most ubiquitously expressed in human cells (glucocorticoid sp?, androgen, and progesterone) vary, as do the expression of these receptors. The receptors then have varied transcriptional effects, again depending on the steroid molecule, the receptor, and the cell-type. This is why some steroids have primarily "sex" effects, while others have primarily "anabolic" effects. But the most commonly used 'roids by athletes, are ones that have higher affinities for the androgenic receptors, which produce the most performance enhancing effects. This is also why you see things like hirsuitism (sp?), acne and premature balding in athletes on 'roids, because the best 'roids will still have some "sex" effects.

Here's a pretty good ref for this topic:

Tsai, J, and O'Malley BW. Molecular mechanisms of action of steroid/thyroid receptor superfamily members. Annu Rev Biochem 63: 451-486, 1994

Regarding your second question:

“Do you think it reasonable for Catlin to say at the Price hearing that the Aussie research showed that THG has potent anabolic properties??”

Sort of. Any substance which has higher binding affinity to androgen receptors than testosterone or nandrolone certainly should have potent anabolic properties, but you are correct in inferring that the actual anabolic effects (weight gain and increase in muscle mass) remain to be shown in an in vivo model.

I am very appreciative of you full response and will digest and look to your refs.Judging from your tone I dont think we are a long way apart in concept

This next Q is not to deny.

Would you feel that Gestrinone,which is quite widely used in medicine in the Uk, would have any anabolic effect in terms of enhancing performance.

As a point of philosphy;do you feel that THG should be anabolic in order for it to be covered by the concept of related compound.I ask this a you may well be aware that it has been argued that there are other compounds that are related to Gestrinone that are not banned.

May I ask one further Q.Are you happy with the level of independent peer review demonstrated in many of the new tests or even for Nandrolone?

thinittru wrote:

I see your point but feel that trenbolone seems to be a vey minor part of the discussions.It was never mentioned in Calins evidence to the Chambers hearing.The T in THG stands for tri and not trenbolone.However I would appreciate futher clarification of the Trenbolone part.However just because it is part trenbolone goes not mean that it will attach itself to the receptor site.

The nomenclature of THG has nothing to do with either "tri" or trenbolone, it means "tetra" as in four hydrogenated molecular bonds. "TETRA-HYDRO-GESTRINONE." The fact that it's components are trenbolone and gestrinone are besides the point. Both are stand-alone analbolics in themselves. THG is the finished products and it looks and acts like both androsterone and testosterone, both analbolic steroids, the lack of just one double bond is what testers weren't looking for in the past.

thinittru, shut the f*** up about the organic chem until you learn what you are talking about.