Great canova article

Whenever you start tossing around ideas of "good," or "great," or "bad," you're usually talking subjectively so we all have our own criteria for what impresses us and there's really no way to demonstrate who's got it right or not.

I don't think anyone at Letsrun has ever disputed that Canova is very good at what he does. The question is how useful what he does will be to the Letsrun audience. That's why some of us ask why he only coaches Africans and why some of us are more impressed with a coach who gets a 5:00 high school miler to a 14:50 five km as a college runner. There are a LOT more of those sorts of runners around than there are Kenyans who have spent 10-12 years building their aerobic houses.

That's not a criticism of Canova and I don't see JimE criticizing him. He's simply saying other coaches have impressed him more.

Canova doesn't coach only Africans, so your criticism is off base. I know you think you need to defend Lydiard at all costs, but the man himself would've hated this attitude. He was constantly adjusting his coaching, and clearly didn't want to become some weird Godhead figure.

Plus, Canova is mostly criticizing American interpretations of Lydiard -- e.g., a major D1 coach openly mocked me for doing tempo runs in July -- not Lydiard's system itself. Canova and Lydiard are similar, with some small but meaningful differences.

JimE WAS criticizing him though. He said that anyone with access to the talent that Canova has could get the same results. I think people have these kinds of views because the only Kenyans they see are the ones who make it.

I want to clarify some points.

1) I'm not interested to impress somebody with the results of the athletes I coach. I always coached with the ideas to help every athlete to reach his best possible results.

This happened when I was in Italy (for who doesn't know, I'm yet the coach with the higher number of athletes in the Italian National Team, in all the age groups), and happens now I stay long time in Kenya.

2) My behavior is very simple : when I speak with some athletes, of every level, I explain them which kind of qualities they have, and which type of results they can achieve. I explain also what they have to do, according to my knowledge, for reaching those results. Of course, this means a type of training with the following targets : continuity, graduality, full focus, disciplin, motivation, loyalty with other people and with themselves. This means no shortcuts, no doping, no excuses.

Nobody obliges to follow what I say with a gun : it must be their own choice, also because I never go to recruit some athletes, but are the athletes coming to me.

3) After speaking in this way with everybody comes to me asking to be coached, I give two different options, depending on the future value of the athletes, according my ideas :

a) if the athlete has, in my opinion, the possibility to become a real champion, I ask him to follow very strictly what I plan for him, but...

b) if the athlete has the attitude for becoming a good athlete only, I try to convince him in having a more soft approach, BECAUSE IN THIS CASE THE SACRIFICES (that are the same for a top champion or for an amateur) CANT PRODUCE A FINAL RESULT ABLE TO JUSTIFY WHAT ELSE YOU DON'T DO IN YOUR LIFE.

4) This means that I'm the first knowing that my final system is not the right system for normal people. In my life, when I was still in Italy till 2003, I prepared programs for amateurs that came to me for some advice (of course without asking money, JimE), and they improved dramatically, the most part of times REDUCING their mileage, but of course CHOSING the most important workouts to do.

5) So, forget the intensity in extension as normal practice for normal people. However, some of the principles I use with top runners work very well with everybody. These principles are :

a) Training is the answer of the body to some stimulus. Without stimulus there is no real training, and it's not possible to improve : so, WE NEED TO GIVE SOME STIMULUS AT THE LEVEL OF THE ATHLETE IN ORDER TO HAVE A REACTION PRODUCING IMPROVEMENT

b) Stimuli can be in two directions only :

1- Extension

2- Intensity

This means that to repeat a lot of times the same training doesn't give any stimulus, and without stimulus we have ADAPTATION

c) Adaptation is the main ENEMY for every type of improvement. It's like a schoolboy who, because was good in the class 4, wants to repeat again all his life instead using what he learnt for going to class 5, and after, for example, to University. So, amateurs are students finishing their education at the end of primary school or secondary school (depending on their level), professionals are students finishing University, top champion are students with the specialization.

At the same time, teachers of primary school do one very important job, that is not the same of teachers of secondary, of University, of Specialization. It's not one job is better than the other, but of sure IS DIFFERENT.

d) If somebody asks me WHICH SYSTEM I use with the bests in the World in Marathon (Moses Mosop, Wilson Kipsang, Abel Kirui, Jonathan Maiyo, Florence Kiplagat, Mary Keitany, Lucy Kabuu and several Ethiopians), I explain the phylosophy I use with them. I have a group working with my phylosophy, we work together and try to understand what we have to do in training, looking at the reality at the moment. For example, preparing Olympics, we had to face several problems with the best Kenyan athletes, because the time from London marathon was not enough for recovering and using the full plan we normally used. We understood, already during the preparation, that the shape of Wilson Kipsang and Mary Keitany (followed by my disciple Gabriele Nicola) was not at the same level of the first London. Consequently, we had to change trying something without the same intensity of before. Abel Kirui, who already had experience in preparing a big Championship in Summer, had less problems in this direction.

If somebody asks me a full plan for building a marathon runner from the beginning of his career, of course my answer is different.

If somebody asks me which is the training I used with, for example, Thomas Longosiwa during the last 2 months of preparation, I show the training he did. Nothing to do with what he did in 2004, when started working with me in Iten AS PACER OF HIS WIFE (marathon runner for 2:31).

e) But, everytime I answer to questions related with the top runners, there is a discussion about the system for everybody. This is ridiculous, because are two different things. Jim can be impressed by the coach starting with a lot of children without talent, personally I'm more impressed by a researcher able to find a new solution for some sickness than by a teacher of primary school. And this for a very easy reason : in the world there are plenty teachers of primary school, and very few researchers. So, we don't discuss if the researcher is more intelligent than a teacher, that's not the point. We don't discuss if the researcher had the opportunity and the teacher didn't have for studying at that level. WE EXPLAIN FACTS.

f) Jim, I don't know if you can have the preparation for becoming a top coach of top athletes in Kenya : may be yes, mey be not. The fact is yourself explain you are not interested, because there is no the same money you can earn in your normal job, you have a good family at home and, finally, you are happy about your life.

I also am happy about my life, and this is exactly the reason because I went Kenya, after leaving my position of Technical Scientific Director in Italy (I was in Italian Federation from 1969 till 2002, and I couldn't anymore continue with a Federation where, year after year, the level of passion and competence and knowledge of the Counsilors continued to decrease, but the level of arrogance to increase). This fact was a choice of life, not only because in Kenya there were the best talents, but also because I felt happy to do something for people having nothing, opposite to our young boys and girls, the most part without ideals and motivations, because their parents already provided for everything, not teaching them the "taste" of conquering something with their own strengths.

g) At the end, I see you don't know absolutely anything about Africa. Yes, there is a lot of talent, but to coach an African is very much more difficult than to coach a European or an American. We have to teach them the base of professionalism they don't know, we have to educate people around them, we have to fight with wrong traditions, we have to face continue emergencies. I work 15 hours per day when I'm in Kenya, not only for following the athletes, but for meeting them in their houses, helping them in solving their problems, organising easy things for big groups, taking care of their daily problems. Working with European or American athletes, all these problems don't exist.

h) And finally, going back to the technical point, I can say that, without any doubt, if an amateur puts, in his plan, some long run a little bit faster than before, and a little bit longer ; if uses more long tests at marathon pace ; if uses some sprint uphill, and is able to use also the right recover (better longer than shorter), he can improve his PB very clearly. Try using "granum sali", and see the results. And remember that, in any case, the plan for amateurs or young runners is not a miniature of the plan of great champions, such as a Toyota Yaris is not a miniature of a Formula One.

Mr Canova, is there a way I could contact you for advice with my training? I tried to email you at an email you used on here in the past (recalec) but that was 7 years ago or so, so I don't know if it worked.

Hi Renato

I have used your general principles over the past 18 months with a lad I coach with huge improvements this year to 3:42 (1500), 4:01 (mile) 7:59 (3K)....

I have also had success with club runners from 5K to marathon getting significant improvements....though few of these are at national class...One female marathon runner aged 50+ got ranked 3rd in her age group nationally...

I have found that these general principles are similar to those used by Dan Pfaff in coaching sprinters/jumpers/throwers and there is a great degree of utility in combining both sets of knowledge in the quest for improved sustainable performance across all spectrums of athletes....The key being to tailor the training demands to the individual athlete circumstances recognising that often less=more in the context of overall mileage...

One of my athletes trained at Iten this past year and had some interesting conversations with you...he also related that there were some 1000+ athletes there at any one time with innumerable coaching groups...

Adharanand Finn's recent book Training with the Kenyans gives a great insight into Iten and Kenyan mentality...

I have found over the years that studying your methodologies in the context of learning from many great coaches (and some not so great) has been invaluable to my and my athletes...

Sincerely

Old Scottie

Renato,

You have been very generous in this message board with details and explanations of "Formula One" training for various race distances. Can you share some more of your thoughts about "Yaris" training? Many of us have jobs and families and want to race as fast as we can at (say) 1500m to half marathon given the limitations of our talent and circumstances. What is the most important advice you have for people like that?

I have to agree with Old Scottie, Mr. Canova. I've used your ideas of more training near race paces with much more rest with one of my runners and she was able to drop from a 5:14 1600m runner to a 5:03 runner.

I do believe that your methods can be used at lower levels to help younger athletes achieve, but one has to be careful in modifying the distances and paces to the ability of the athletes, which for many high school coaches (and even some of the larger college teams) because of the number of athletes one is working with at a time.

Thanks for the information you do share.

Canova has not had anywhere near the success coaching non-Kenyans. That's not criticism, it's fact. And I have not mentioned Lydiard at all, though I would agree that many have misinterpreted both Canova and Lydiard. Lydiard, for example, always had people doing what are now called "tempo runs." And few people who are interested in Canova seem to pay much attention the business of spending a decade or so building that big aerobic house, a concept of his that I completely support.

HRE wrote:

Canova has not had anywhere near the success coaching non-Kenyans. That's not criticism, it's fact. And I have not mentioned Lydiard at all, though I would agree that many have misinterpreted both Canova and Lydiard. Lydiard, for example, always had people doing what are now called "tempo runs." And few people who are interested in Canova seem to pay much attention the business of spending a decade or so building that big aerobic house, a concept of his that I completely support.

Lydiard did not have anywhere near the success coaching Mexicans. That's not criticism, it's a fact.

See how that works?

This post and all the rest on here are why Mr. Canova impresses me. When I start ranking coaches, I think would Phelan (yes) Lydiard (yes), would Salazar...

HRE wrote:

Canova has not had anywhere near the success coaching non-Kenyans. That's not criticism, it's fact.

Point to some examples: what runners are you referring to?

HRE, your facts are not facts, but are fruits of your specific ignorance about the World of Athletics not connected with New Zealand or America. May be everything is not in English language for you doesn't exist.

In Italy, we had a coach that developed two Olympic Marathon winners : Luciano Gigliotti. He was the coach of Gelindo Bordin (winner 1988) and Stefano Baldini (winner 2004). We worked together, and shared all their experiences with our athletes. Officially, he was the responsible for men, I was the responsible for women. Really, we planned together the training of male and female.

I was the responsible of Italian Marathon. Because I never won any medal, according to HRE, I want only to give some data :

World Marathon Cup (it was the World Championships for Marathon Teams from 1985 till 1995, after was organised inside the normal World Championships : 5 athletes with the best 3 scoring) :

Winner with women in the first edition (1985 - Hiroshima)

Winner with men in the second edition (1987 - Seoul)

Silver medal with men in 1989 (Milan)

Silver medal with men in 1993 (San Sebastian)

Winner with men in 1995 (Athens) with all the team directly coached by myself (Milesi 3rd, Gozzano 5th and Crosio 7th)

European Marathon Cup (inside European Championships, 6 athletes with the best 4 scoring) :

Winner in 1994 (first edition in Helsinki)

Silver in 1998 (Budapest)

Individual medals and finalists :

Olympic Games :

1988 - Maria Curatolo 8th

World Championships :

1995 - Ornella Ferrara Bronze medal

1999 - Vincenzo Modica Silver medal (together with Tommaso Ticali)

European Championships :

1994 - Maria Curatolo Silver medal

1998 - Maura Viceconte Bronze medal

Only for giving an idea of the talent I could work with, Fabio Rinaldi, born in 1973 and starting to train with me in 1995, had a PB when junior of 4'19" in 1500m.... and after not only won Italian Championships in Marathon, but was able running 13'58" in 5000m, 28'49" in 10000m and 61'51" in HM (and 2:11 in full marathon).

Maria Curatolo and Maura Viceconte started their activity directlòy with me, when 19 years old. Maura was not able to run under 10'20" in 3000m till when was 26. After she became the National Record Holder of 10000m in 31'05"57 and Marathon in 2:23:47, record bettered by Valeria Straneo this year in Rotterdam (2:23:44). Valeria Straneo is coached by a woman, Beatrice Brossa, who was my athlete in the Club Fiat Iveco, European Club Champion.

So, before speaking about something you don't know, try to be sure about what you say. This is not a criticism, is a fact.

Mr. Canova. Are Italian coaches Luciano Gigliotti and Georgio Rondelli aware you are taking credit for people they actually coached?

Renato,

Thank you for posting here. Your knowledge is oh-so valuable to me & a lot of people on the LRC. I use it all the time in my coaching of high school athletes (to a lesser degree, of course).

There are a lot of people who like to dismiss you (for whatever misguided reasons). It's regretful. They seem to forget that you do not have to visit letsrun or share your knowledge with them. (I don't see the other top coaches in the world doing this!)

You truly understand that all athletes & coaches really are in this sport TOGETHER.

Thank you,

Canova Fan #78323

But he did have success coaching Finns and none of the athletes he coached were nearly as fast when they started with him as the Kenyans Renato coaches are when they start with him.

Renato,

I have seen a video in which Bordin himself says that everything he did was "Lydiard." It doesn't surprise me that you collaborated on his coaching because, and I've said this here before, most of what I've seen of your training is not all that different from what he did. Maybe you think it is and we'll just always see that differently.

When I talk about you not having had the kinds of successes with non-East Africans as you've had with Africans I know that your successes were not exclusively with Kenyans.

That's an excellent resume' you've posted there. But without what you've done with your Kenyans I doubt that you would be the subject of anywhere near the amount of discussion here.

Of course with Italian athletes I couldn't have the same results I have with Kenyans. This is something true every time : the first step for being a top Champion is... the talent you have, and this comes from Mama and Papa, and is God's gift.

About Bordin, Gigliotti started to coach him, looking at marathon, in 1984. At that time, all the "Italian School" looked at Lydiard, including myself. But really, you must understand that, when an athlete says "I follow Lydiard's principles", this means ONLY high mileage, with the main usage of long and continue run. But the training of Bordin was really very much different. For example, the system of long run with long tests alternated with 1 km of recovery at 90% of Marathon Pace (MP) is something Gigliotti used, after discussing with me and Giampaolo Lenzi, and Lydiard didn't use. Bordin started running, 4 months before the marathon, for example, 23 km alternating 8 x 2000m at MP (in this case 6') with 1 km in 3'20", for arriving to run 3 x 7 km under 21' alternated with 1 km under 3'20". Stefano Baldini used these kind of workouts more frequently than Bordin, and faster.

In another thread, somebody wrote that Li, Bernard Lagat's coach, told Bernard was a follower of Lydiard. This is one of the biggest bullshits I heard in athletics. Bernard was exactly the opposite of Lydiard : little volume and high percentage of intensity. How is it possible to say he follows Lydiard ?

So, Lydiard was the base for everybody in Italy, but after we developed a different type of training.

But, how we could explain several times, the type of training depends on the quality of the athletes. And that's the reason because my training with Kenyans (but not all kenyans, only the strongest) is different from the past : because they are stronger than the athletes I coached before, and I can do something before not possible.

I well know the fact that, without the results my Kenyan athletes obtain, I couldn't be the subject of discussions like happens now. But it's not my problem to be subject of discussions. Simply, I explain what I do in training, with whom I do, why I do. I want to give informations about what I had the opportunity to learn during all my athletic life, and if there is some discussion this is something coming from other people, many of them trying to understand something that is difficult to understand, because every REAL training I post depends on particular situations (so, for example, when I go to post the last 3 months of training of Abel Kirui or Wilson Kipsang before Olympics, you can see that it's completely different from what we used before winning in Daegu or London in April).

About Luciano Gigliotti and Giorgio Rondelli, I think I was clear explaining that Lucio was the coach of Bordin and Baldini, but we worked together for about 17 years. And, about Rondelli, nobody of the athletes I named was coached by Giorgio : he was the coach of Alberto Cova (world and Olympic champion of 10000m) and Francesco Panetta (world champion of 3000 steeple), and of several other top runners not so famous (in the marathon, his best athlete was Goffi, 5th in OG 1996).

So, everybody of us is aware of what he did and the athletes he coached. Instead, doesn't seem you were aware of what you wrote.

HRE, you seem to want to claim every person you can as training "Lydiard" but you also seem to have a problem with many people misunderstanding what is meant by Lydiard. Wouldn't it be more useful to post and analyze Bordin's training and show us how he trained the Lydiard way instead of using a mention from him as proof?

JimE wrote:

"My point is any coach with this group will have huge success. On the other hand 1000s of coaches are trying to develop runners at the high school level with not even 1/10th of 1% of the success of for example Henry Phelen."

I want to agree with JimE here especially since Mr. Canova has joined in.

On Thursday I spoke with Henry (few of you have likely heard of him) at length and was SO impressed with his passion and knowledge. He understands the sport and looks for answers when he has a question. He is a great coach who goes unnoticed because he isn’t a self promoter. I’d want my kids to learn from him and anyone else like him. Henry is a quality person.