It is easy to say Ritz is a 10k runner after he lost the 5000. If he is indeed a 10k man than why is he racing the 5 and not the 10? Finally, if he did race the 10, what would you say after he lost to Cragg?
It is easy to say Ritz is a 10k runner after he lost the 5000. If he is indeed a 10k man than why is he racing the 5 and not the 10? Finally, if he did race the 10, what would you say after he lost to Cragg?
and everyone knows that to run a very fast 5K you have to be a very fast 3K runner. and everyone knows that to run a very fast 3K you have to be a very fast 1500 runner. and to run a very fast 1500, you have to be a very fast 800 runner. so ritz needs to work on dropping below 1:47 or he'll never make it as a marathoner.
when he becomes a fast 10K runner, he will be able to run a fast 5K. he is "just" a 10K runner. the 5K is too short for him. a 10K specialist will automatically be able to run a fast 5K if they're training properly. doesn't mean he will suddenly develop a kick.[/quote]
You make no sense. What defines a 5K runner in your mind? My point is that in order to run a 27 minute 10k, you've got to be able to run at least a 13:05 to 13:15 5k. Ritz needs to do that in order to compete on the world level at 10k, at least. It is now impossible to compete with the Ethiopians and Kenyans at 10k and only be a "10k runner".
It's like a high school kid who can't break 2:00 in the half but thinks he can run a 4:05 mile.
chuck d wrote:
and everyone knows that to run a very fast 5K you have to be a very fast 3K runner. and everyone knows that to run a very fast 3K you have to be a very fast 1500 runner. and to run a very fast 1500, you have to be a very fast 800 runner. so ritz needs to work on dropping below 1:47 or he'll never make it as a marathoner.
when he becomes a fast 10K runner, he will be able to run a fast 5K. he is "just" a 10K runner. the 5K is too short for him. a 10K specialist will automatically be able to run a fast 5K if they're training properly. doesn't mean he will suddenly develop a kick.
This has been an issue between Dathan and Wetmore since Dathan arrived at CU. If you will notice G Torres often ran the 1500 in an effort to hone his speed for the 5000. It could very well be the case that Wetmore is allowing Dathan to have his way, in hopes that Dathan will eventually see the light.
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"
This is the guy who was rated to go up against Cragg mmmmmm!
That 10k time was a smoke screen. i dont think he will finish in the top three at the trails
??? wrote:
It is easy to say Ritz is a 10k runner after he lost the 5000. If he is indeed a 10k man than why is he racing the 5 and not the 10? Finally, if he did race the 10, what would you say after he lost to Cragg?
the philosophy at CU seems to be not to overrace yourself at your optimal or chosen distance (see torres last year in the 1500). it seems rather clear that ritz intends to run the 10K at the trials and is perhaps doing what many on this board apparently think he should do: race some 5K's. i don't think anyone ever thought ritz had a future internationally at the 5k so i don't see why me calling him a 10K runner is such a shock or is the easy way out as you claim. it's a fact and has been a fact for a few years now.
and i wouldn't say anything other than good show to cragg if ritz lost to him. cragg is a far more mature runner right now than ritz and it wouldn't really suprise to see cragg beat ritz (as he has done in the past).
FanMan wrote:
You make no sense. What defines a 5K runner in your mind? My point is that in order to run a 27 minute 10k, you've got to be able to run at least a 13:05 to 13:15 5k. Ritz needs to do that in order to compete on the world level at 10k, at least. It is now impossible to compete with the Ethiopians and Kenyans at 10k and only be a "10k runner".
It's like a high school kid who can't break 2:00 in the half but thinks he can run a 4:05 mile.
that's fine. i don't know what we're arguing about here. ritz is better equipped to be a 10K runner. this doesn't mean that it's impossible for him to run 13:05 or whatever you claim he needs to do. my point is that he should focus on training for the 10K and not worry about the 5K. the time will come down by itself. there's no rule which says before running a 10K you have to reach a certain 5K time.
my point, which seems lost on you, was in reference to his supposed lack of kick at 5K; he doesn't have the leg speed to kick with guys like cheseret and cragg. those guys are well-suited to the middle distances while i think ritz is well-suited for longer distances. hence why i called him a 10K runner. i imagine at some point in the future he will run another 5K. and i'd imagine at some point in the future he will reach those times you mention. and i'd imagine he still will be better suited to the 10K and longer no matter how fast he runs 5K.
Chuck D,
Thanks for the good response. I was wondering if you would come back with some defensive nonsense like many poster do here when questioned or attacked.
You are correct in that coaching and long term goals are key factors in Ritz's development.
Say, chuck d ... please tell me how running a 5K slower than your 10K pace, then getting outkicked does you any good?
I thought everyone was saying that Ritz went through puberty in the last year and now looked like a man....granted this was the 1st race I've seen him run live, but the guy still looks like a fast kid who overstrides.
Since Ritz is a collegiate runner, he's required to run in the collegiate championships. Unfortunately, instead of holding the outdoor meet at a site where distance runners stand some chance to run fast and win, they are repeatedly held at sites (e.g., Baton Rouge) where it is impossible to run fast. Anytime the meet is held in a hot and humid climate, the long distance races are at the mercy of those with the best finishes. At this point in his career, Ritz does not have a good kick, and thus in the 5,000 meter outdoors his chances are limited. One thing the race might be good for, however, is preparation for running in the conditons that Sacramento and, especially, Athens will offer. If Ritz does make the team--and I think he will--it will be in the 10,000. Nevertheless, don't be surprised if he runs a sub 13:20 5,000 at the Pre-Classic if weather permits. I'm fairly sure he wants an "A" qualifier in that event.
CO-Runner wrote:
Say, chuck d ... please tell me how running a 5K slower than your 10K pace, then getting outkicked does you any good?
If Ritz was the rabbit then he sucks cuz going 2:50 for the first K is why he lost. A real rabbit would have had them throught the K in 2:40 or faster. If Ritz had the balls to push the pace early he could have and would have run. Why in the world would he not have dropped the hammer as soon as Che caught back up after the fall - it's one thing to catch back up with a 30 sec. 200 - it's another thing entirely to catch up and then have to surge again. He could have broken Che right there, but he didn't. Ritz's tactics in the race were poor - as soon as I saw the 3k split on the board I was ready to give Cheseret his medal.
Ritz could have won this, but he would have had to run 13:20 pace from the gun instead of at the bell. Wetmore should have known this, and he should have told Ritz to either run the first 2K fast or not bother racing. It seems like Wetmore is an excellent coach to get someone in shape to run fast, but his athletes' tactics are consistently poor.
Ritz should have taken off from the gun with the intention of running 13:20 - inviting anyone who could hang to give it a shot. Instead he runs classic gutless championships style - like he's got a snowball's chance in hell of outkicking a guy like Che. Oh well, props to Che for running smart - if Ritz was going to make it that easy for him I guess you can't fault the guy for taking it.
If Ritz can't handle Austin in June then Athens would be like a swift kick in the nuts for him - better just give his spot to someone who can handle less than perfect weather.
For the record ... I'm not knocking Ritz's 2nd place at NCAAs. I'm just concerned that unless he works on a few more "tricks" he is going to be one of those guys that forever runs fast times, but can never win a big race.
CO-Runner wrote:
For the record ... I'm not knocking Ritz's 2nd place at NCAAs. I'm just concerned that unless he works on a few more "tricks" he is going to be one of those guys that forever runs fast times, but can never win a big race.
then for the record, the guy is a sophomore. he still has quite a while to work on his tricks. your concern is likely unfounded. his xc race was tactically quite sound (that seems to have been a big race and, *gasp*, a win). he simply has run into guys with superior kicks at distances he isn't quite as well equipped for. if he starts blowing up at 10K, maybe your concern is called for. bitching about his 5K kick is akin to complaining j. torres didn't take out the 1500 last year; he wasn't likely to win either way.
Gofromthegun wrote:
It seems like Wetmore is an excellent coach to get someone in shape to run fast, but his athletes' tactics are consistently poor.
yeah, i have to say a guy who has coached the last two xc champs doesn't know a damn thing about the tactics to get a win. torres was simply lucky to have beaten cragg that day. that whole explanation of the elaborate race plan torres and wetmore worked out for the race was just torres covering wetmore's ass in a post-race interview. i mean, when i think of guys like torres and goucher, i constantly think about what they could have done if their tactics hadn't been consistently poor.
It seems that the majority of the posters on this board are surprised that Cheseret beat Dathan and now think Dathan won't make the Olympic team. Here what I think:
1. Robert Cheseret is a great athlete the same caliber as Dathan and Cragg.
2. Robert has ONE OF the best kicks in collegiate athletes (maybe second only to Alistair) when Cheseret is fit.
3. Dathan may have trained thru NCAA being his team had no chance at a high team placing.
4. Dathan chances at US Trials are still very good, look at the athletes he did dropped in the NCAA 5000m Teg and Louis L. are extremely good and couldn't stay with Dathan or Robert.
Its no reason for concern Dathan knows what his is doing and will be ready to TRY and make the team against one of the US strongest 10000m groups in over a decade.
VIPAM
chuck d wrote:
CO-Runner wrote:For the record ... I'm not knocking Ritz's 2nd place at NCAAs. I'm just concerned that unless he works on a few more "tricks" he is going to be one of those guys that forever runs fast times, but can never win a big race.
then for the record, the guy is a sophomore. he still has quite a while to work on his tricks. your concern is likely unfounded. his xc race was tactically quite sound (that seems to have been a big race and, *gasp*, a win). he simply has run into guys with superior kicks at distances he isn't quite as well equipped for. if he starts blowing up at 10K, maybe your concern is called for. bitching about his 5K kick is akin to complaining j. torres didn't take out the 1500 last year; he wasn't likely to win either way.
My concern is not unfounded ... Ritz is a "One Trick Pony".
So, if we put Ritz, Cragg, and Ches into the 10K together ... Ritz still loses.
Don't worry chuck d, after you see Ritz get trounced in the trials ... because it will be hot in Sac too, and it will likely be a tactical race ... you'll figure it out, but won't admit it here.
okay. and what trick is that exactly?
hot in sacramento? maybe. but it gets a whole lot cooler in sac at night than in austin. humidity is less, too. and i don't see what difference that will make. 10K's at USA champ meets don't usually come down to kick situations. the field tends to break apart over the last 1-2 miles. i imagine ritz should be able to handle something like that.
if he gets "trounced" in sacramento, feel free to call me out on your own personal thread. i promise to reply and eat crow. but don't think i won't do the same to you if ritz qualifies for the team. let's see if you'll admit it.
chuck d wrote:
okay. and what trick is that exactly?
Go to the front; set a pace that is quick, but not quick enough to break anyone; get outkicked.
NCAA - Indoor
NCAA - Outdoor
but what happened when he ran that 10K at xc nationals? that's his distance, not 5K, and he seemed to have done just fine. he's a shitty 5K racer. who cares. completely irrelevant to his goals this year and in the future.
CO-Runner wrote:
For the record ... I'm not knocking Ritz's 2nd place at NCAAs. I'm just concerned that unless he works on a few more "tricks" he is going to be one of those guys that forever runs fast times, but can never win a big race.
sounds a lot like what people said about webb... so who would now win in a 5k between webb and ritz? webb! 'cause ritz is now the chicken shit