Sebastian Coe have the best kick in track?

Jim Ryun ran the last lap of a 1500 in under 50 seconds, some of the times had it at under 50 seconds. This was in 1966 in Europe when he destroyed Harold Norpoth and Bodo Tummler on the last lap.

I think it might have been this post from wellnow. I have never heard of an other elite runners regularly doing such a session. Perhaps this could be an area someone doing their doctorate/masters at Loughborough could research.

From the old thread:

wellnow wrote:

foomiler, thanks for the link to Coe running on the Rivelin Valley Road:

What is interesting about those 6x800's with short recovery is that he is running slightly downhill with a following breeze:

The session starts at an elevation of about 165m and drops to around 75m in just under 5k

On that day a warm south westerly helped him as it probably did on most of the other occasions over the previous 12-13 years.

Just think of that 12-13 years of doing that session?

someone had to do it wrote:

Jim Ryun ran the last lap of a 1500 in under 50 seconds, some of the times had it at under 50 seconds. This was in 1966 in Europe when he destroyed Harold Norpoth and Bodo Tummler on the last lap.

I know of the race you are referring to, but it was in 1967 and the sources (e.g T&FN and the book "The Milers") are rather vague about the exact time for his last lap. It actually says it was "50.6 ...(although one report gave it as 49.7).

A discrepancy of over a second doesn't make either source sound that reliable to me. I'd tend to go with 50.6, and without any kind of video evidence, I think even that time isn't certain.

'Having a faster 400pb is no guarantee of a better kick in a 1:45/1:46 race. In one outside 1:50 possibly, but not in faster races.'

That's something ventolin will never understand. Remember 1 shoe Whittle, he never had much of a finish over 800m whatever the pace despite being much faster over 400m than nearly all his opponents

Red Arrow wrote:

I know of the race you are referring to, but it was in 1967 and the sources (e.g T&FN and the book "The Milers") are rather vague about the exact time for his last lap. It actually says it was "50.6 ...(although one report gave it as 49.7).

A discrepancy of over a second doesn't make either source sound that reliable to me. I'd tend to go with 50.6, and without any kind of video evidence, I think even that time isn't certain.

I just looked it up. Yes it was in 1967 - in Dusseldorf. One of the timers also recorded his 100 meters on the backstretch - 11.6 seconds. That is blazing speed. I saw the picture of the finish, I can't seem to find it online, but it is very telling. The distance he put between himself and the field on that last lap was incredible, you can see some fuzzy figures way in the background.

If i'm correct, did Geb finish the final 200m's of his 10k in Atlanta in under 25 seconds? or a hair over 25?

Red Arrow wrote:Yes, but EL G's last 200/100 at the end of that 53 last 400 was nowhere near 25.7/12.7. Coe's last lap just got faster and faster

idiot

that was in 3'26.00wr race

that kick is in a totally different universe to whatever "3 gear kick" in a 3'32.5

And EL G's run was a one off paced affair, not the 7th race in 9 days in a Championship event held in hot conditions

so ?

you going to dare offer coe a 53+ finish in a 3'26.00 in a paced affair when rested on temperate day ???

if not, then there is no comparison

The fact that Cram only ran 3:33.1 in 84 doesn't mean that's all he was capable of. Coe only ran 3:32.3 that year, but he was capable of sub 3:30. Cram was in as good a form as he had been in 83, and showed nothing prior to his 85 season that matched what Coe did in LA.

nonsense

cram went 3'31.6 in '83 & only 3'33.1 in '84

anyone who believes cram was as good in '84 as '83 is an idiot

this doesn't mean cram in '83 shape wouda beaten coe in '84 - latter likely in low-3'29 shape in a one-off race, say oslo, but it wouda been much closer race

coe didn't have the basic speed of '81 in '84, & as a prelim for him in '84, i'd start with

46.3 / 1'42.5 -> 3'29.1

jennifer cruz wrote:Rudisha, B.Konchellah and M.Everett all would have brought more to the table. Do you realize that Konch's 45.38, admittedly at Nairobi, was done at age 17?

yes

coe himself said after watching billy destroy elliot ( a guy who ran 1'42.9 a coupla years later ) that billy looked liked the guy who coud threaten his wr

imbecile

you clearly have no clue about this

wang is not known to have run a 400 in competition but for years i have offered :

55.6 / 1'57.4 -> 3'50.7 , 5'14.0 , 8'04.6 , 13'56.2 , 29'09.9

or

55.5 / 1'57.3 -> 3'50.7 , 5'14.1 , 8'05.1 , 13'57.3 , 29'13.2

or

55.4 / 1'57.1 -> 3'50.3 , 5'13.6 , 8'04.2 , 13'56.0 , 29'10.7

people have been waffling 52/53 for her for years

then canova offered this :

so, according to canova, who is the most anti-calculator guy around, the calculator predicted the absolute exact 400 time that he was informed of

so the calculator works for the greatest female distance track runner in history but not any men ???

ventolin^3 wrote:

imbecile

you clearly have no clue about this

You've soiled yourself again, moron. Ryun ran in relays. Ever take a look at his times?

ventolin^3 wrote:

jennifer cruz wrote:Rudisha, B.Konchellah and M.Everett all would have brought more to the table. Do you realize that Konch's 45.38, admittedly at Nairobi, was done at age 17?

yes

coe himself said after watching billy destroy elliot ( a guy who ran 1'42.9 a coupla years later ) that billy looked liked the guy who coud threaten his wr

Have you ever seen an easier looking sub 1:46 (1:45.99)?

Konch's pb of 1:43.06 was set in the WC final in Rome, where he took gold, the first of two WC golds at 800m.

Ventolin, your calculator definitely is a great tool, but plugging in a 1:41 for Ryun seems a bit ridiculous. I'll agree that he was a phenomenal runner, but there's no way he was good for sub 3:26. Not even close.

ventolin^3 wrote:

sambo wrote:Abraham Chebii, circa 2003.

Obviously didn't demonstrate it repeatedly like some of the other names here, but for a little while he threatened to be a real great.

i'd put his line of fit in '03, prelim

~ 49.5 / 1'45.5 -> 3'28.9 ! , 4'45.3 ! , 7'22.2 !! , 12'46.8 , 26'54.9

3k wouda been his best distance ( no one has been interested in 2k for a decade+ )

49.5????!!!

Now, I've heard people talk about the aerobic thoroughbreds at the top of distance running being able to run incredibly close to their fresh top speed at the end of races, but I'm not having this. He was bloody rapid. Undoubtedly sub 49.

Raptured wrote:Ventolin, your calculator definitely is a great tool, but plugging in a 1:41 for Ryun seems a bit ridiculous. I'll agree that he was a phenomenal runner, but there's no way he was good for sub 3:26. Not even close.

he ran 3'51-flat on dirt completely solo & uneven pace - a 59s lap in there - he also said he wasn't tired after finishing, so maybe there was a bit more to give

3'51 :

knock off 1s/lap for dirt to '70s synthetic -> 3'47

knock off 1s/lap for no drafting to bell -> 3'44

knock off 1++s for uneven pace & still having something in the tank at the finish ->

<<3'26.5 as prelim estimate

with anything like 46s speed ( hicham himself is quoted as having "48s speed" ), that will get you 1'41 potential in '67

sambo wrote:49.5????!!!

Now, I've heard people talk about the aerobic thoroughbreds at the top of distance running being able to run incredibly close to their fresh top speed at the end of races, but I'm not having this. He was bloody rapid. Undoubtedly sub 49.

highly unlikely <49

see wang example above - no 52/53, but mid-55 from canova's source & calculator

similarly dibaba/defar have finished slow races in close to 56s

their open 400 isn't likely to have been better than 55 either

lol lol lol lol wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

imbecile

you clearly have no clue about this

You've soiled yourself again, moron. Ryun ran in relays. Ever take a look at his times?

i have no idea what this drivel is :

for ryun, go fetch the answers to :

- fastest ever relay leg

- when he did it considering '67 was peak year

- schedule of racing that day - did he run relay leg on fresh legs or had race before

- dirt to synthetic conversion

- relay to open 400 conversion

come back with some answers to above

ventolin^3 wrote:

kick essentially means what 400 you are bringing to a slow race

i'd offer :

coe - 45.7/45.8

ryun - 45.8/46.0

cram - 46.2/46.3

noah - 46.3

asbel - 46.9/47.0

ovett - 47.0/47.1

morceli - 47.5

hicham - 47.7

bernie - 47.8/48.0

aouita - 48.0/48.2

keino - 48.4

this is pretty much more or less what i'd expect the order to be in a slow 1500, say 3'35 - 3'40 pace to bell, with a mass sprint by the bunch at the bell ( with some tweaks )

This is basically a made up list based on little if any evidence, except that they are convenient times to back up your calculator predictions at other distances.

Cram was NEVER capable of 46.2 for 400m. Any British coach, commentator or athlete that worked with him or followed his career will tell you that. Most wouldn't expect him to have broken 47 flat at the height of his powers in 85/86.

Aouita has a 400 pb of 46.9 and I expect he'd have been faster than Cram over 1 lap. He was certainly faster than 48.0 in 84/85.

Morceli too would have been faster than 47.5.

As for Ryun, he had a fastest ever 440 relay leg of 47.0 in 66, the year he ran his fastest 800m. That's 47.5 from a standing start, and 47.2 for 400m.

That is all we have to go on. His fastest 440 relay in 67 was 47.7, when he was also slower at 800m than he had been the year before. His fastest 880 in 67 was a 1:46.1 relay.

It's amazing that when Cram runs a 3:33.1 1500 in 84, you decree that this is all he was capable of.

But with year bests of 47.7 relay (worth 48.2 for flat and 47.9 for 400m flat) ) and 1:46.1 (worth 1:46.0 for 800m from standing start) in 67, you can decree that actually Ryun was capable of 45.8/1:41!!?

There is actual video documentation of Coe running a 45.6 relay 90 mins after a 1:44.0 solo 800m, for all to see on Youtube. And in that he stumbled at the take over and lost 4m. So a 45.7/45.8 prediction for him in 81 is realistic.

This is not the case for Ryun.

Ryun ran 46.9 for 440 in 1966 not 47. He also ran the last lap of a 1500 faster than just about anyone which was likely done on a crappy track.

idiot

see how accurate it was for wang

or does it only work for the greatest female track distance runner ever ???

nonsense

ask those same guys what they wouda given for wang's 400 in '93

i'd bet none of these "experts" wouda picked anything like 55.5

similarly, cram in '85 was immensely faster at 800/1500/mile than he had ever been

therefore it is inevitable he was much faster at 400 than ever before & derisory relay legs in china in late '84 when he was nothing better than 3'33.1sb, are no guide whatsoever to his 400 ability in '85 when he was capable of 3'28-flat

only an idiot coudn't understand this

that 46.9 from aouita is nothing but a boast

if it was a relay leg, he probably got baton near end exchange zone

to expect aouita to be faster than cram over 400 is moronic

cram has 1'42.8pb v 1'43.8 for aouita with both similar 1500

only an idiot woud believe cram had slower 400 in '85

try & find a brain :

cram ran 3'29.67wr but his mile indicates nearer 3'45.0 ability if perfectly run -> low-3'28 with 1.08 conversion

his 1500wr was nowhere near as good as his mile wr & the closeness of aouita gives false impression of how fast aouita was & how slow cram was over 400

no

if hicham states his 400 was "about 48", morceli's woudn't have been very different as they had very similar profile

it's quoted as 46.9 & it was shortly after a 3'55, so on tired legs

46.9 for 440 is 46.6 for 400

subtract 1.0s for dirt -> 45.6

add 0.7s for relay to open ->46.3

that's 46.3 open 400 ability on tired legs in '66 when he was nowhere as good as in '67

if the guy ran 1'44.3wr, anyone with 1/2 a brain woud realise that a 1'46.1 is a complete jog

he never ran a proper 800 in '67

moron

that was his sb

i'm sure he'd got down to low-3'32 by the final, but nowhere as good as '83

moron

he had a 1'44.3wr, so this 1'46.1 relay is meaningless - a training run

& his 400 ability in '66, when not as good as '67 was likely close to 46-flat & on tired legs

nonsense

your peabrain can't even do basic arithmetic subtracting for dirt & adding for relay