Equivalence of 800 & 1500 times ?

The stadium is very much closed on all sites

So I offer -0.5 for drafting and -0.5 for side wind. So 1:42.8 looks about right. Also you have to add into the equation the crazy splits that Coe ran in his race. Kipkurgat ran near perfect through 400m in 51.3. Through 200m he followed the crazy Filbert Bayi in the outside lane.

52.43 wrote:The stadium is very much closed on all sites

eh ?

it's an ancient rugby stadium with a track for the games

it's a shallow bowl of a stadium with swirling winds, nothing like a modern athletics stadium like '08 olympics

you can see the flag by trackside swirling away 40s into race

800fan wrote:

Checked the Iaaf table, I like it (surprised). What exactly is wrong with it?

In 1981 Coe was in shape to run 46.5 for 400 and thus IMO capable of something like 1:41.2 if he had gone for the record a few times, like they do nowadays. Don't forget Coe ran 2:12.2 for 1000m a month after his 800m WR. But this is all speculation, he ran what he ran. The point is, there are enough clues to suggest a substantially better time was possible.

Coe in action:

800m June 3rd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5zTzMciyxw&feature=related

4x400m same day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZGonCBaOM&feature=related

There's no reasoning with Ventolin! He'll argue day is night if it fits in with his opinions and his calculator tells him so.

It makes me laugh that he can state so arrogantly that Ryun was in 1:41 form in 68, based purely on one race in 1:44.3 (more like 1:44.5 electronically) in 67! The race in 67 was on synthetic as well, yet good old Venty assures us that would be 1:41 a year later.

He has knocked seconds off Kipkurgat's, Juantorena's, Snell's, EL G's, Ngeny's, Ereng's, in fact most Kenyan's 800 pbs on various threads over the years, for a variety of reasons; including pace, temperature, how the athlete was feeling, what he'd done the previous year, track surface, etc. Not to mention several tenths off almost every other 800 runner's pb in history. Yet when it comes to Coe, who had 2 unplanned world records and ran the event less often than many of the above over a season, Venty is certain that he is the only one who ever ran his absolute perfect race. Beg his pardon, I think he's reluctantly changed it to 1:41.5 over the years, even though anyone with a pair of eyes can see that he ran wide round Konchellah (who wasn't recruited as the rabbit and finished the race), which in itself was worth 0.2.

Basically, imagine you were given these 2 scenarios of 2 athletes with pretty much equal ability over 800m .....

1) Athlete 1 has 2 "major" 800 races planned for at the end of August. He solo runs his first international 800 of the year the first weekend in June against mediocre opposition. He then goes on to run his first race in Europe a week later on a pretty poor track. He is lucky to find someone willing to take the pace on the first lap in a good time. The rabbit doesn't drop out, so the athlete behind, deciding that the time on lap one was v. good and not worth wasting, decides to go past and see what happens. Running the entire 2nd lap 40m from anyone, he sets a new pb & WR. It's 1.71 secs faster than anyone else has ever run. He runs few more international 800's except for a couple of slow tactical ones for his country which he is obliged to do by his National Federation. He goes on to set pbs at other distances later in the Summer, and easily wins the 2 major 800s planned for in August against the best the World has to offer, in tactical affairs with blistering sprint finishes. He remains unbeaten at any distance.

2) Athlete 2 has NO global competitions or Championships to aim for. He has no commitments to run for his country and can pick and choose where to run in Europe. He runs just 800m and has his goal set at breaking the World record by the end of the season. He has a committed training partner who is also his own personal rabbit for every race he enters. He starts off in earnest in June, running 1:42, which is close but still some way off the WR he wants. The fast races continue throughout July and early August, and soon he has improved by a further 0.5 secs to set a pb. He goes away, trains harder, adjusts and experiments with improved pacing alongside his faithful training partner. He reaches late August, the peak of the season, where the tracks are fast, the competition better, and he has trained for all summer to bring him to this peak. He does it on perhaps the fastest track in the world. But it's only 0.02 faster than the old WR. He then improves it by a slender margin a week later.

Of these 2 athletes, who do you think had the best opportunity and is most likely to have got closest to their peak potential?

What time do you think Coe would have run if he's just concentrated on the 800m?

At that time it was thought that doing both 800m and 1500m was beneficial but nowadays most seem to concentrate on just 1 event

ukathleticscoach wrote:

What time do you think Coe would have run if he's just concentrated on the 800m?

At that time it was thought that doing both 800m and 1500m was beneficial but nowadays most seem to concentrate on just 1 event

LOL!

Don't you know? Coe is the only 800m runner in the history of the event who ran his perfect race and reached his absolute potential with 1:41.7, according to Venty!

Every other 800m runner that has ever been can be made at least 0.5 faster by manipulation of various stats by Venty. ;0)

Don't expect anything different from the above from him.

idiot

if you present a logical argument, you'll get no complaint from me

moron

i'm talking '67, not '68 when he had mono

in '66 he was a 19y ole, ill, with prelim in his legs & he ran a wr which lasted 7y !

he was also much stronger the next year as evidenced by demolishing his 1500pb

imbecile

get it into your numbskull

it was grasstex, described as a "semi-synthetic mixture of dirt & rubber tire shavings"

it was in no way the synthetic track of mexico - the 1st modern synthetic competition track

all with logical criteria of poor pacing, lack of drafting, etc

not one without justification

eh ?

low-1'43 is what he got - any quicker is not anything i woud claim, other than how you want to assess his indoor wr

eh ?

what are you drivelling on about ?

i'm talking about the best guys around using modern assessment tools available nowdays - research evidence on drafting/altitude adjustment/etc

all justifiable factors

drivel

moron

apart from his swerve, how was it NOT a perfect race ???

idiot

i've given him 1'41.3/1'41.4 above

i do not go in for nonsensical 1'41.0 - his latter season 800s were nothing special

with performances any 1'43.0 guy with 46 speed in history couda run

they were nothing special

moron

he had his continental championships to aim for & won it in far better form than coe's 2 latter 800s in '81

moron

it is not potential

it is actuality

guy 2 ran his pbs in late season

guy 1's 800 races after his pb were nothing special - nothing a 1'43.0 guy with 46 speed coudn't have done

no matter how much you pray & beg, a world cup win in 1'46.1 & requiring a fast finish to record that is nothing special

if he'd run a 1'43.0 solo, then we are talking special - but that's not what happened

Red Arrow wrote:LOL!

Don't you know? Coe is the only 800m runner in the history of the event who ran his perfect race and reached his absolute potential with 1:41.7, according to Venty!

Every other 800m runner that has ever been can be made at least 0.5 faster by manipulation of various stats by Venty. ;0)

Don't expect anything different from the above from him.

moron

did you read earlier or are you too stoopid :

1'41.3/1'41.4 for him in '81

ukathleticscoach wrote:What time do you think Coe would have run if he's just concentrated on the 800m?

At that time it was thought that doing both 800m and 1500m was beneficial but nowadays most seem to concentrate on just 1 event

he mighta got his 400 down to 45.0 - 45.25, but 45.0 is pushing it, as he mighta needed to train for that exclusively to get down to that ( & drop even the 800 )

his theoretical 1500 woud have to drift out from ~ 3'27.0, a good 1s i'd say at minimum - to 3'28.0

3'28.0 with

45.25 ->1'41.22

45.20 ->1'41.17

45.15 ->1'41.12

45.10 ->1'41.07

45.05 ->1'41.02

45.00 ->1'40.98

if i had to put money on it, i'd say about 1'41.1 ( perfect race )

ventolin^3 wrote:

His last 100m in that race was 12.0, and he was easing up at the end. In which races have Rudisha or Kipketer run 12.0 for the last 100m?

moron

12.0 in a 1'46 race is nothing

any low-1'43 guy coud run that

Rubbish! Put your money where your mouth is and give me one example of where a 1:43 or better athlete has run a last 100m faster than 12.0 in a 1:46 race?

Or faster than 11.3 in a 1:47. (Helsinki 81) ?

Or faster than 12.4 in a 1:44.0 (London 81) ?

As for Coe having merely a hydration headache, in Running Free it states :

"The week after Florence Seb was due to run for Loughborough at home against the AAA, but went down with a STOMACH VIRUS and a large crowd was disappointed. Seb also had to withdraw from the international against West Germany & Poland the following week"

He didn't race again for over 3 weeks. (P.146 paperback edition)

So when Ryun has a headache you can tell it's a virus, but when Coe has one and it is stated he went down with a virus straight after, he's got a dehydration one!? LOL.

God you're priceless.

Ventolin,

Could you predict 400m and 5000m times from the following:

1:53.5 800m, 3:57.2 1500m, 8:57 3000m

Thanks!

moron

are you ludicrously claiming this is something a 1'43.0/46+ guy coudn't run ???

this is 1'47.5 pace at 700m !

that is pathetic pace

1'43.0/46.0 don't go into major, important races aiming to run 1'46 in this day & age - not when running against kip or rudy in their prime - go watch 1'42.8 solo in nairobi or 1'43.3 in athens

moron

that is 1'49.4 pace for 700m !

what kinda idiot woud dare claim this is as good as a 1'41.7 or coudn't be run by a 1'43.0/46+ guy ???

i've already said that race is low-1'42 quality or wr at the time

but, it happened before 1'41.7, NOT after

idiot

that is diagnosis made after firenze

"headache + 90o" is likely dehydration until other symptoms develop - where is vomiting/diarrhoea of stomach virus ?

moron

what the f*ck is 1st diagnosis made when "sore throat" & "feeling terrible" are mentioned ???

& you are an imbecile

Fancy Feet Tricks wrote:Ventolin,

Could you predict 400m and 5000m times from the following:

1:53.5 800m, 3:57.2 1500m, 8:57 3000m

Thanks!

that 3k looks weak ( ? poorly paced )

prelim line of fit i get is :

49.6 / 1'53.2 -> 3'56.4 , 8'46.1 , 15'42.2

you have near mid-49 speed ( at least 50.0 ) ?

I ask because I've never run a serious 400 since I was about 16... focusing on the 800, and to a lesser extent 1500.

The 3000 I was actually quite proud of - I've run about half a dozen while in peak form, with my second fastest at about 9:06, and most closer to 9:10.

Currently trying to get back into form...goal-setting phase...

It's hard to measure the equivalence of effort over distance in time. It's hard because it's impossible, because they are different.

Sorry, v^3, you've been wasting all of your effort over time. Good thing no distance was involved.

troofslayer wrote:It's hard to measure the equivalence of effort over distance in time

yes it is hard

It's hard because it's impossible, because they are different

no

it's hard but NOT impossible

in absolute physics terms, "effort" = energy expended & there are formulas for that

i got = 800 / 1500 as an

a) ~ 1'43.0 = 3'30.1

&

b) ~ 1'44.0 = 3'32.0

a) physics ->

1'43.0 = 800*(800/103)^3 = 374842u of energy "efforted"

3'30.1 = 1500*(1500/210.1)^3 = 545867u of energy "efforted"

a) physics ->

1'44.0 = 800*(800/104)^3 = 364133u of energy "efforted"

3'32.0 = 1500*(1500/212)^3 = 531322u of energy "efforted"

find an empirical link between them & you are on the road to

"the answer"

Exactly what I thought! You can't answer the question.

You have NO evidence whatsoever of any athlete running these sorts of last 100m times.

I'll give you one example:- Yego's last 100m in winning the World title in 1:47 in 07 was 12.3. That's 1 sec slower than Coe's 81 split.

Running fast times is not always necessary in championship races. Just because a race is won in 1:46 doesn't make it a poor performance. The World Cup in 81 was one of the most decisive 800m races ever seen. He was running against a host of 1:44 athletes and pulled away by more than a second in the last 100m. That shows he had far more in reserve than the rest of them. If you can only deduce form from fast times, then your understanding of the event is somewhat stunted. The manner of a win, whatever the time, tells us as much as the time itself.

As for "praying" or "begging", I certainly don't need to do that to you. I know what he was capable of and it doesn't matter what you think.

Show me evidence of 12.0 last 100m in a 1:46 or 11.3 in a 1:47 or 12.4 in a 1:44.0 solo, otherwise don't bother me with your waffle.

idiot

kip was in 1'42.87 shape in '95

he won wc in 1'45.0, with 600 reached in 1'20.0

he then ran ALL of last curve in lane 2 & mostly in the middle, not edge with lane 1

that is 5m extra distance

therefore ran 205m in 25.0 or

200m in

24.4s in a 1'45.0

see above

idiot

yego's sb in '07 was 1'44.50, NOT stated 1'43.0

his pb at the time was 1'43.89 from previous year

try 3 - fastest of year being a 1'44.3 kid called cruz along with robinson & wagenknecht

moron

i "deduce" the manner of the win did not compensate for the too slow time to compare with 1'41.7

not with a winning 1'46.1

keep praying & begging someone might agree his latter 800s looked comparable to a 1'41.7

for a start, show me some "official" last 100s in a 800, NOT your crap from low quality vids with no 700m markings

otherwise look at kip in '95 for an accurate last 200m

I think Yego is a good example. He is known to be one of the fastest finisher of the current scene.

but only a 1'44.50sb in '07...