Afraid to kick with 150? He should be kicking with 400! That's what Bekele did and he had already run 11.5 laps instead of just one! Americans need to stop being wimps and start backing up all their pre-race talk. When I ran my 1:58 800 pr I went balls to the wall with 250 to go and made it to the finish ahead of everyone else. All it took was some courage, which is something Symmonds needs to find.
Sprint Geezer wrote:
Allowing himself to get boxed in WAS his "shot" at not medalling, and he took it.
I object to your implication that he consciously decided not to take the risk. You were going on the other day about how sprinters in the blocks are not conscious, rational beings. Being in the final turn of an 800 is the same thing. His instinct was not to begin an all-out kick in lane 2 on a turn, it was to be patient and try to make some magic happen in the straightaway. It didn't work out, but there is no guarantee that the other option would have been any better.
I don't disagree with your opinion of his tactics. I DO disagree with your projection of "lack of courage" on an athlete who gave everything he had, but made a tactical mistake.
Yeah after watching the race again he did do a really good job of getting himself in position, just couldn't execute. It looked like he got lightly clipped a second time ~30 meters later. If he had just pounced before the first guy passed him he would have had a good chance.
I'm gonna assume that Symmonds knows his body a lot better than you guys, so I'll take his word for it. If an elite runner thinks he would have tied up if he kicked from 150 out, he's probably right.
Symmonds ran a good race and put himself in good position on that last lap, but had a tough call to make when the Pole came up on his side right before the curve. He would have had to run the curve on the outside of lane 2 to get himself in a better position! That's a tough place to be.
The 800 has to be the most tactical race of them all. If Symmonds when wide on the curve, he still would have had trouble maintaining his kick all the way.
Regardless, he has shown some great tactics this year, sounded pretty logical in the post-race interview, and I really like his chances for next year.
Wheeeeeee--
I appreciate your excellent comment.
But back to the original post, where it said that "I thought when he was coming up on my shoulder, "I've got to hold him off. I've got to hold him off". To do so would have meant kicking from 150-160 meters out which also would have cost me the race."
This sounds like a guy who is consciously racing, to me, although of course I could be wrong.
Conscious racing would seem to me to be a good thing in the 800, where placing and pacing play a big role, where there is a definite strategy and various tactics that can be implemented. In fact, it may have been exactly because he was thinking so hard that his courage could not triumph.
Although once again I do appreciate your comment, and you could certainly be correct. But, at some point in every race, there is only one tactic that is appropriate--don't think about it, and GO NOW. In the 800m you aren't always in control of that point, and sometimes you have to run somebody else's race.
Referring to the other thread, it just so happens that that point in the 100m race is at the start line.
Again, I like Symmonds a lot.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but if you're red lining at 600m and kick it into overdrive / all out sprint with 150m, you're going to be doing the skeleton dance the last 75m. Yes, I am an physiology expert.
You think he was red lining, in what possibly for him wasn't a particularly fast race?
Plus, again, he didn't need to do an all-out "sprint", as you call it, at that point. It would have been sufficient to assert position, and to do that all he needed was a short burst or some big elbows.
In every 800, there's a point usually around 600m where you have to make up your mind what the hell you're going to do. You can't make more than a couple of moves in an 800 because there isn't time and you won't be able to recover.
Symmonds was where he wanted to be, right on Kaki's shoulder, with 200 to go, and would really not want to swing wide around the curve (extra real estate). But right at that point the three guys in front of him started to accelerate. He had the choice at exactly that point whether to stay in lane 1 behind Kaki, or swing wide for a sprint finish. It's a split second decision, and whatever you decide at that time, you have to stick with, if you want to have any chance at all of winning.
Symmonds did not go wide, but fell in behind Kaki. He had to stay there OR HIS RACE WAS LOST.
The thing is that very often in the last 100m people will move out from lane one, and if you hug the curb, you can often sneak by them in lane 1. Rich Kenah won the last US male outdoor medal in the 800 in 1997 by doing this. And in fact Kaki did move out to get by Borz.
I don't think Symmonds has the ability to actually beat Kaki or Borz in a race like this, but he would have been better off had he been patient and waited for the race to open up for him. I think he could have been 4th.
On this day Nick Symmonds = Asafa Powell. He panicked.
i appreciate your balanced and thoughtful contributions to this post Geezer...
i would congratulate symmonds on a fine effort... BUT i do think there is a good discussion brewing here ABOUT mental preparation and when to let THE ANIMAL take over...
interesting to discuss... thanks all
ventolin^3 wrote:
Sprint Geezer wrote:Amantle Montsho and Kirani James would have taken the chancedrivel
those 2 have never run an elite 800 race in their life
they woudn't have a damn clue what the best tactics woud be for it or whether it woud be better to kick then or wait for stretch
only an idiot kicks off the bend in lane 2 when 160 - 180 out & running an extra 2m compared to guys in lane 1
Tell that to Ralph Doubell.
You go when you have to. Sometimes it opens up when you least expect it or plan for it.
He knew when he had to go, and he decided it was too far for him.
He said - paraphrase - 160 m you go and your done, you don't go and you're done.
He chose to take the easy way and not go. He made no ground in the straight, and he'll never really know if he could have held them off if he'd gone. In the end he ran a slow time.
I don't know if I like him a lot as a runner. I think he is immensely strong, and I bet he could arm wrestle Silvestor Stallone.
I was pleased the way Yuri B tried to adapt. If Willis wants to win he should lose about 10 lbs in the upper body and let it go in the race. I think he over manages his races. You can't think too much and still win.
Rene the Cart wrote:
ukathleticscoach wrote:'To do so would have meant kicking from 150-160 meters out which also would have cost me the'
No. I agree with sprint geezer he should have gone at this point and run wide round the turn
He didn't run badly but I would have took the chance if I had his ability
He didn't fail in the courage department, he just thought it would work out that he would have an opening later. He doesn't mean 'I knew my only chance was to go then, but I thought it would likely fail so I didn't bother.' He means 'I had a shot then, and in hindsight it was my only shot, but at the time it looked like such a likely-to-fail shot that I didn't take it.' You guys need to learn to listen/read. He says now that in 20/20 hindsight he'd take that shot. It's a lesson he's learned--remember, this is the first championship 800 he's really been in contention for that late in the game. He's learned the lesson that on that stage, sometimes you just have to make a huge risk. It's not that he lacked the courage this morning, just that he didn't yet know enough to know when to exercise it. His mindset is perfect, I don't know what you want him to say. His mentality is precisely why Americans will be winning medals, he's thoughtfully self-aware and self-critical, he recognizes how the race is run, how other people run it, he learned the final important lesson today that CHANCE plays a massive role in these races and so when he gets a chance, even if it looks like a sub-50% chance, he's gotta take it, because chances are chance ain't gonna favor him again in the race. That interview was great, if Alan Webb has Symmonds' mind he would already have a couple of global titles and be threatening the WR, instead of a mentally destroyed shell. Symmonds is going to roll next year. Let's go d3!
No he didn't think he'd have an opening later. He hoped he would. He didn't.
He lost it between 600 and 700. He didn't race that 100m and ended up with one of his slowest times when he was in his best position at 600.
He didn't reace very well.
Symmonds knows championship 800m races much better than myself, but why does the choice have to be 'kicking from 160m out'? All he had to do was prevent getting boxed in by moving into the 2nd lane, defend his space, then kick at 110m or whatever. If it was this easy I imagine he would've done it, but that's just how it plays out in a big race i guess.
bobonuts wrote:Tell that to Ralph Doubell
no offense, but if you use science available on the net, that if kiprugut & doubell had both run their best individual tt's at 0m in separate races with wabbit to bell with 2s split laps, we are talking
~ 1'42.7
v
~ 1'43.2
crazy person wrote:
Symmonds ran a good race and put himself in good position on that last lap, but had a tough call to make when the Pole came up on his side right before the curve. He would have had to run the curve on the outside of lane 2 to get himself in a better position! That's a tough place to be.
The 800 has to be the most tactical race of them all. If Symmonds when wide on the curve, he still would have had trouble maintaining his kick all the way.
Regardless, he has shown some great tactics this year, sounded pretty logical in the post-race interview, and I really like his chances for next year.
Rubbish. The Pole went around him. Wider still.
You want run the shortest distance run with Rudisha. If you can't then put y9oursefl in th eplace to chase him. He was in great shape at 600. He blew the last. When the Pole was coming thru, he was waiting, knowing he was done. Listen to his comments. He knew exactly what he'd chosen.
He took the soft way out.
ventolin^3 wrote:
bobonuts wrote:Tell that to Ralph Doubellno offense, but if you use science available on the net, that if kiprugut & doubell had both run their best individual tt's at 0m in separate races with wabbit to bell with 2s split laps, we are talking
~ 1'42.7
v
~ 1'43.2
I have no idea what your point is.
I mentioned Doubell because he was not a chance pre-olympics, raced well to put himself in it at 150 to go, and let it loose to win.
wendell wrote:BUT i do think there is a good discussion brewing here ABOUT mental preparation and when to let THE ANIMAL take over...
True, this is a great discussion topic....the conscious vs. subconscious during performance (and I would argue athletic performances are comparable to musical performances). You do everything possible to prepare for any situation that could happen in the moment of the performance; you also use visualization techniques to imagine how things will go, that things will go well. And you also struggle with that inner voice of doubt or confidence - the "inner game", or inner conversation you have with yourself DURING the performance, and does it distract you or does it help to focus you better. The more performance experience one has, the better directed that inner conversation goes. Just my thoughts...
In music though, they don't like it when you finish in front of everyone else, or after everyone else.
bobonuts wrote:I have no idea what your point is.
I mentioned Doubell because he was not a chance pre-olympics, raced well to put himself in it at 150 to go, and let it loose to win.
err...
because next next most consideration after actual result is what their absolute intrinsic ability was at the time
( & doubell was long way behind at 500 - 600 in strung out out race, so it's crap about 150m tactical - he just ran evenly as he couud )
too difficult a concept for ya ???
like him
speaks well
not a jerk