There is out of competition drug testing in Kenya (even if there wasn't at this meet). I don't know how much but there definitely is some.
There is out of competition drug testing in Kenya (even if there wasn't at this meet). I don't know how much but there definitely is some.
1500m Athlete wrote:
there is no pacing allowed in nationals trials and don't mistake someone trying to make to worlds as a pacer!!
Right, that's why it was a scandal that they had two.
insiders know wrote:
1500m Athlete wrote:there is no pacing allowed in nationals trials and don't mistake someone trying to make to worlds as a pacer!!
Right, that's why it was a scandal that they had two.
When they saw the U.S. Trials the Kenyans thought the Trials were such a pathetic run by the Americans that to prevent their own trials from being a disgrace to all Kenyans like the American Trials were to America and also to prevent from sucking horribly they included 2 pacers against the rules to make sure the pace goes fast enough and was not an incredibly pu**y race by their own breed.
Toro - I was thinking the same thing. Let the first NON-qualifier be the pacer. And even if he ran away with the race in a WR, he would not be eligible for the team.Or maybe use a non-quilifer from the steeple or 5000m, (schedule permitting). In any case, it would probably not have any effect. They will just ignore the rabbit and do their thing anyway.
toro wrote:
Rec Runner x wrote:having pacers at american trials will increase the chances of sending the fastest performers
I agree with this.
But even though USTAF was slow, the US is still sending its fastest performers.
I think the final q at USATF should be assigned to lead the first 800 at world class pace. The others may ignore it, though.
It is not clear, though, the Kenyan Trials had a pacer. It just seems like Choge took the pace out, and paid for it.
ventolin^3 wrote:
Lets give him 3:30.9I think he'll probably pb in Monaco if he's taken to the bell in the 2:33-2:34 range economically. Let's say 3:28.5 - 3:29 flat
eh ???
how are these statements consistent ???
if you are saying he was worth 3'30.9 in nairobi & can go 3'28.5 - 3'29.0 at sea-level, how on earth does that indicate altitude didn't affect his performance ???
Stop being provocative Ventolin. You know the answer and it's pretty obvious.
1) This is a Championship and he'd already run 2 races in previous days.
2) 1:54 for 800m and 2:51 for 1200m are not optimal pace for running your full potential if you are a sub 3:30 performer.
So, had he not turned around he'd have probably have run 3:30.9 in Nairobi.
If the pace had been 55.5, 1:52, 2:48, he'd have probably broken 3:30 in the final.
Had it been a 1 off race with above splits, then more likely 3:29 flat.
Give him another few days of training and he can possibly tweak that a few tenths.
My observations had nothing to do with altitude.
It is clear that many on this board have never trained, acclimated, or raced at altitude.
Fact: Silas Kiplagat won in dominant fashion over a slew of great runners in a fast time.
Letsrun doofus's take: Because the title mentioned the altitude I will discount the entire premise that this was an impressive run.
Fact: In the history of great Kenyan 1500m runners no one has ever run as fast on Kenyan soil.
Letsrun doofus's take: There can only be one great performance in history and another guy ran slower more than 40 years ago in Mexico so I choose that.
Fact: Silas Kiplagat has trained specifically for much of his life and has a special ability to run fast at altitude, almost as if the altitude has no effect (unless he is doping).
Letsrun doofus's take: ... therefore he is a bum (who is doping).
Fact: Silas Kiplagat is in great shape right now and he won a national championship in probably the most competitive middle distance running country in the world.
Letsrun doofus's take: He he might not be in great shape in the future so all current performances are invalid.
What is also interesting here is how they determined their WC team.
Kiplagat and Kiprop place 1-2 and take two spots.
Then a third member is selected.
Chepseba was fifth but was given the wild card over Daniel
Kip Komen who placed third.
Komen has a lifetime PR of 3:29.02, faster than any Kenyan competing today.
Choge was the second best Kenyan last year and set the pace in this race.
Chepseba won a couple of big meets this year in May in 3:31.
But of course was beat head to head in this race by Komen.
It seems like Chepseba was awarded the spot for running fast earlier or having the right connections.
This is not a good selection process.
Silas had a training plan for peaking in WCh, being at 95% of his shape in Nairobi. His first part of the season was not very impressive, because we decided to have a long period of training looking at the Aerobic Power, and we didn't use specific speed till the Diamond League of Eugene (4.06). After Eugene and Oslo (9.06, when he was stuck in his stomach by the elbow of another runner, and was not able to breath well), he didn't go to sea level for any competition, and had full focus in training for a long period (34 days). Till now, Silas and Collins Cheboi (they train together) didn't use full speed, that in my plan can start in August only.
About the difference altitude / sea level for a Kenyan adapted to the situation for a period of not less than 4 weeks, I think can be about 1"5, in any case under 2". You must think that Nairobi is about 1,700m and Silas trains at 2,100, so for him this altitude is not very high.
About the race, the pacer didn't have any influence. For example, in the semifinal won by Augustin Choge in 3'37"7 in front of Collins Cheboi (3'38"), Nixon Chepseba (3'38"3) and Silas Kiplagat (3'38"6), Collins went in front in 1'54", while in the final the splits were 54"8 and 1'53"8 (when the rabbit stopped running). About Silas, his splits were 55"5 / 1'54"5 (59") / 2'51"5 (57") + 39"9 last 300m.
Personally, I think Silas can run between 3'28" and 3'28"5 in Monaco if the pace will be ok. Collins Cheboi is booked as pacer, but, due to the cancellation of Haron Keitany, can be possible for him running, so the problem is to find another pacer able to go at 1200m in 2'48" (last year was a splendid Choge to attack after 1100m, going in 2'47"3, but Silas was 5th in 2'49"4).
About the selection, the Kenyan coaches preferred ro trust Chepseba because is very young, and can have a strong future. Daniel Komen Kipchirchir is coming back again after 2 years with injuries and a surgery, but in the past never showed ability in competitions with some title (WCh and/or OG), exactly like Paul Koech (3000 steeple) or Isaac Songok.
toro wrote:
What is also interesting here is how they determined their WC team.
Kiplagat and Kiprop place 1-2 and take two spots.
Then a third member is selected.
Chepseba was fifth but was given the wild card over Daniel
Kip Komen who placed third.
Komen has a lifetime PR of 3:29.02, faster than any Kenyan competing today.
Choge was the second best Kenyan last year and set the pace in this race.
Chepseba won a couple of big meets this year in May in 3:31.
But of course was beat head to head in this race by Komen.
It seems like Chepseba was awarded the spot for running fast earlier or having the right connections.
This is not a good selection process.
Daniel Komen has a pretty awful record in championship running. It is not surprising they would not pick him (although who knows what all criteria). I am glad we still pick our entire team via trials.
Wow. Imagine if Alan Webb placed third at USATF in 3:32 behind Manzano and Lomong with Wheating placing 5th.
And USATF put Wheating on the team over Webb because Webb couldn't medal in the past and they thought Wheating had more potential.
I'd be pretty pissed if I were Komen to take two years to recover from injury, get healthy, kick the young guys ass in the National Championships and then get left off the team to be replaced by a guy you just beat that hasn't run within two seconds of your best time.
Everyone is different. Daniel Komen used to get a big bump up in performance from altitude to sea level. My best fried trained up in Kenya with him, and Daniel was certainly not the hottest guy in camp on a day to day basis. But point taken several people who have grown at altitude don't get as big a jump up in performance from altitude to sea level.
Having a rabbit at USATF Nationals is a retarded idea. You guys keep getting caught up on time. What's the point of having guys who can run fast time trials go to the World Championships just to get bumped in the first round. I'd rather have guys who we know can run fast AND close in 51 off of a slow pace if need be.
The best runner is the runner who wins not the runner who runs the fastest. That's the point of the race.
If we want to move to a rabbit system, then you might as well scrap the trials completely. Just take the top 3 from the performance list...or just PRs.
Having a rabbitted race doesn't make you know less about their racing ability if they are still racing head to head in a race that is put on the schedule ahead of time and deemed a championship or trials.
"The best runner is the runner who wins not the runner who runs the fastest."
In any given race, the runner who runs fastest is the one who wins.
But compiling times from separate races doesn't say who can race best.
I give Silas 3:27 flat or better.less2 seconds for altitude.1 second for better pacing.1 second for full effort1 second for peaking = speed work.no doubt, when you are dancing around at altitude after a 331
Renato Canova wrote:
Silas had a training plan for peaking in WCh, being at 95% of his shape in Nairobi. His first part of the season was not very impressive, because we decided to have a long period of training looking at the Aerobic Power, and we didn't use specific speed till the Diamond League of Eugene (4.06). After Eugene and Oslo (9.06, when he was stuck in his stomach by the elbow of another runner, and was not able to breath well), he didn't go to sea level for any competition, and had full focus in training for a long period (34 days). Till now, Silas and Collins Cheboi (they train together) didn't use full speed, that in my plan can start in August only.
About the difference altitude / sea level for a Kenyan adapted to the situation for a period of not less than 4 weeks, I think can be about 1"5, in any case under 2". You must think that Nairobi is about 1,700m and Silas trains at 2,100, so for him this altitude is not very high.
About the race, the pacer didn't have any influence. For example, in the semifinal won by Augustin Choge in 3'37"7 in front of Collins Cheboi (3'38"), Nixon Chepseba (3'38"3) and Silas Kiplagat (3'38"6), Collins went in front in 1'54", while in the final the splits were 54"8 and 1'53"8 (when the rabbit stopped running). About Silas, his splits were 55"5 / 1'54"5 (59") / 2'51"5 (57") + 39"9 last 300m.
Personally, I think Silas can run between 3'28" and 3'28"5 in Monaco if the pace will be ok. Collins Cheboi is booked as pacer, but, due to the cancellation of Haron Keitany, can be possible for him running, so the problem is to find another pacer able to go at 1200m in 2'48" (last year was a splendid Choge to attack after 1100m, going in 2'47"3, but Silas was 5th in 2'49"4).
About the selection, the Kenyan coaches preferred ro trust Chepseba because is very young, and can have a strong future. Daniel Komen Kipchirchir is coming back again after 2 years with injuries and a surgery, but in the past never showed ability in competitions with some title (WCh and/or OG), exactly like Paul Koech (3000 steeple) or Isaac Songok.
in iten wrote:
There is out of competition drug testing in Kenya (even if there wasn't at this meet). I don't know how much but there definitely is some.
Don't make me laugh. You don't think they protect their own people from being caught. Drug test means very little these days.
Big leg (but small brain), you are another stupid person speaking about something you don't know. People of antidoping in Kenya are not Kenyans. The responsible is called Paul Scott, and is Canadian. The doctors come from South Africa. The samples are sent every week in the Barcelona's lab. Tests are not less than 15 every week. I think there is no Country in the World having so many tests out of competition as Kenya (also because there are no Countries in the World with so many athletes in the whereabout system).
So, please, stop arguing something stupid, only because you don't know where it's possible to arrive with training only, if you have top talent a top motivation.
Renato Canova wrote:
Big leg (but small brain), you are another stupid person speaking about something you don't know. People of antidoping in Kenya are not Kenyans. The responsible is called Paul Scott, and is Canadian. The doctors come from South Africa. The samples are sent every week in the Barcelona's lab. Tests are not less than 15 every week. I think there is no Country in the World having so many tests out of competition as Kenya (also because there are no Countries in the World with so many athletes in the whereabout system).
So, please, stop arguing something stupid, only because you don't know where it's possible to arrive with training only, if you have top talent a top motivation.
Renato, I am one of those people who is very optimistic and believes that almost no one dopes in 10000m and up running(especially Marathon). How right would I be when assuming this? I understand that in the Sprinting scene there are maybe 30-40% of athletes doping and in 800-1500m maybe 20%, 5000m maybe 5-10% and 10000m and up maybe 3-4% of all elite athletes? I know Kenya has very few dopers overall but how right am I to assume these numbers?????
they seem random to me.
Thanks for the update on the status of affairs (drug testing).
Do you have an opinion regarding the use of EPO in the 1990's ?
Or the use of HGH and other drugs in the Iberian peninsula and Atlas mountain areas in the 1980's up the the El G era?
Yes, I have an opinion. And also, I am able to see WHO USES EPO and WHO DOESN'T USE from their training.
For example, if I see athletes doing very tough workouts on track in lactic area for long time, maintaining their shape for long periods, and in the middle there is no tough aerobic training, THESE ATHLETES HAVE AN AEROBIC SUPPORT WITH EPO or something similar, because this is not possible under the physiological point of view.
In Ifrane, there are Maroccan training on track very, very hard. Some of them goes for only 40' jogging between these trainings (of course I don't say the name, but I know, exactly as I knew about Boulami and Ramzi), and this is a clear signal of doping, because too much lactic training reduces the Aerobic Threshold, and nobody can maintain the shape for long time.
Some other goes for long and fast run : these athletes are clean (some name : Gharib and El Guerrouj, for example, that have all the record in the circuits in Ifrane from 17 to 34 km).
I can also have some opinion about the use of HGH. But I don't want to make public my opinion, because is ONLY AN OPINION, and, unlike many posters of LR, I don't want to accuse anybody on the base of opinions.
But, when we speak about percentage of top athletes doped for events and Countries, I can say that Kenya and Ethiopia are very clean Countries because is not in the mentality of top runners to use any support during their training and their competitions (and I continue to say that with them blood doping doesn't work, also if many can think I'm or stupid or a cheater : but I know what I'm speaking about). In any case, it's true that longer is the event, less doping we can find, because blood doping can support the INTENSITY, not the ENDURANCE under the Threshold.