One of my runners jogged the 4x800.

"Runner A is our most talented runner and runs maybe 20 mpw and competes primarily for the 3200 (10:22). Runner B works hard all year about 50-60mpw, not much talent but is just as good as A because he works hard for it, he runs 1600 (4:43). C & D dont really do much and aren't talented, but they still somewhat try if that makes sense."

I'm surprised this have never happened to you before. Your problem started way in advance of the race, probably at the point that you let your runners do whatever the hell they wanted to. You have a "talented" runner (if 10:22 qualifies as talented - in his own mind perhaps) that you let slack off. Can't imagine why you have two other runners (C & D) who don't do much and aren't talented - tends to go hand in hand - don't do much and get beat ... crazy, I know. If C & D see you consider A talented and allow him to do nothing (20 mpw is nothing), then why would they try hard to improve. You set the tone for having a lazy, uncommitted team. Sorry, just the way it is.

What you should have done is taken runner A and found a meet where the other 3200 meter runners would have beat him soundly. It would be nice if you could have found a sub 9:05 3200 m runner to lap him, but any race where he looks over when he hears the gun/bell go off and realizes he's 300 meters off the lead would work well. Then he might stop thinking he's a legend in his own mind and work to actually have a respectable 3200 meter time. In him getting beat handily in that same race, C & D might realize A is not that good and maybe they don't want to train as haphazardly as they currently do. Besides if C was so mad, why didn't he train harder? Again, if you don't put in the work, shut up and stop complaining.

As for runner B, I agree that race strategies and team/individual goals should have been discussed well before the meet. You could have rearranged your relay team order. Regardless, if B pulled that stunt, I think your only response would have been to pull him from his individual race and end his season right there. Why didn't runner B actually try to encourage his teammates to actually train and try to get better. I wasn't the best guy on my track team, but I trained hard, and was the one that got everyone out to practice daily and made sure we put in an honest effort. I wasn't even a captain, and the freshmen that made up half the team laughed at me all the time. But they came to practice when I organized it, they ran hard, and two of them ran 4:31 and 9:54 respectively (plus both under 16:35 in cross).

Coach, get some courage and take control of your team. Again, I can't imagine that you never ran into this problem in fourteen years. If not, you've probably just been lucky. Of course, after this whole circus was allowed to play out, I'm sure your younger runners who are returning next year learned valuable lessons, mostly likely that they can do whatever they want and blame everyone else, do what they want, and continue to think of themselves as better than they are.

Sorry to be harsh, but you can do better, for yourself and your runners. Take this opportunity and grow from it.

Chinese Chicken wrote:

It seems to me like you should have planned accordingly and made C & D your first 2 legs telling them to run as fast as they can. Give it to A to just chill and maintain a position near the front, and then give it to B to run as slow as possible to get 4th and advance the team. We used to play these games all the time in high school meets.

+1. That is exactly what I thought when I saw the original post. Seems like that would be the smart way to coach this issue.

I agree...C and D should have runs legs 1 & 2. Better yet, let E run instead of B. Don't you have someone else on the team that could be competitive. Why waste B's 1600m? This should like a math problem. Did you sream at him at the 400m split? And in your defense, the kids should have told you what his issue was earlier in the week.

Coach of the Seahawks wrote:

At districts Saturday,

At district

I think runner B should have put more effort into his race, but still not gone all out.

I think maybe you shouldn't have had runners A and B run the 4x800 all out (or at all, even) because

1. They had a good chance of moving on and doing well individually

2. Runners C and D don't work hard

There are HUGE issues with this. I wish you all the best coach, but there are HUGE issues with this.

First, Runner A should NOT be comfortable with a 10:22. You as a coach need to set him into races that make him uncomfortable. In fact, in PA, 10:22 does not even sniff AAA states. As a coach, don't you think runners with egos are BAD choices for relay teams?

Second, because I want to deal with Runner B later, why would you ever lose faith in runners C and D? It sounds like you don't have too much concern for their development. If you don't have faith in them, why should they put effort into training? This subject saddens me, because my coach used to cheer me on and pick me up after even abysmal 5:45's as a freshman. The result? A not-to-talented runner (me) posting 4:40's for him as a Senior. Please don't ever lose faith in your athletes.

Third, and most importantly, Runner B. What the HECK? I never ran relays. But you can bet if I did, and dogged them, my coach would destroy me. I would never have gotten to run my 1600 that day, let alone "Regionals", and probably would have been relegated to "B" Relay for the rest of the year. However, if I made a SINCERE apology, I may have been able to race 1600's, although not at "Regionals". Point is, a coach should stop that kind of stuff in its tracks. PLUS, his snarky apology? Laps, laps, laps, laps, laps.

I sympathize with you, coach, but gotta say, toughen up, teach a lesson, and build a true team.

irony killed the cat wrote:

Coach of the Seahawks wrote:

At districts Saturday,

At district

No, "districts" is correct, just like "Nationals." No one who isn't an idiot says "I made it to National."

wow. I am a freshman girl, I ran a 2:38 in my 4X8. And I have a stress fracture. I could never just give up on my team, i give everything I have, even if I am running a later race.

Seth here wrote:

How shitty is Florida HS running? 10+ 3200 and 4:40 1600 guys advancing towards State? Christ, I grew up in Ohio and had to break 10 in the 3200 preliminary race just to get to the finals of the Sectional meet.

I'm a Florida runner, I ran 10 flat at districts and did not advance to Regionals. Odds are this guy lives in Miami or some other area that sucks ass at distance running.

even if the 4x8 team had qualified and gone on to the next round, what would have happened the following week with runner B? you would have been in the same situation, and he'd be even more likely to dog it because his individual race was more significant given it's one meet away from state.

sj quik wrote:

even if the 4x8 team had qualified and gone on to the next round, what would have happened the following week with runner B? you would have been in the same situation, and he'd be even more likely to dog it because his individual race was more significant given it's one meet away from state.

Then with all due respect to the coach's decision, I do not think a runner like that needs to be on a relay team. Or for that matter Varsity Track. Run him for a significant amount of time in "B". If that doesn't shape him up, or he quits, then obviously he's more prideful than he is passionate about running.

"runner C (who was most mad, was a Senior) finished the race screaming at runner A to run fast. Obviously he didn't put it all out there if he could still talk"

That is a ridiculous thing to assume.

The big question, now that it's over, is what should you have done much earlier to prevent this situation, and what you can do from the start next year. You need to have a coherent coaching philosophy that is communicated to the team, both as a group and to key individuals. What is the culture of your team going to be? If kids knew from the outset that individual goals are to take a back-seat to team goals, including getting teammates on the bus to state, fine. If they know that after a certain point, it becomes more an individual deal, also fine. But not knowing is the problem.

Actually if he refused to compromise his own racing for his team he is probably more passionate about running than most.

I think B should have made it more clear how slow he really was going to run the 4x800. But I totally understand where he is coming from and he comes across as the most sympathetic character in the whole fiasco. I'm wouldn't throw away my own chances of success so that a few lazy kids can feel good about themselves for a little. I mean, if they care so little about track senior year, it's clearly not gonna be bothering them by the time they're in college, let alone two weeks into the summer. Whereas runner B is clearly passionate about running and advancing to states in his event would probably be a major achievement.

who puts together a 4x800 that cant go at least 8:10??????????????

B joined the track team, presumably did workouts with the track team, was entered into and sent to meet by the track team (including a per diem) he should be expected to commit to the track team. If this means losing a few seconds in his individual event so be it. What he did was unacceptable. In the heat of the moment I probably would have pulled him out of his individual race.

Ideally the entire team would commit and train seriously but that obviously wasn't the case. I cannot imagine how there could be such a discrepancy with the amount of training people do that does not excuse not trying. By not competing for the team runner B should not get the benefits of being on the team--including racing and whatever other perks he gets.

These types of runners who only care about their own progress end up dragging the whole team down and I have seen similar runners bring down track teams (both men's and women's). To say that he is sympathetic is absolutely absurd.

or............. wrote:

if 2 of your 4 guys really are not that great then why should he feel like he should sacrifice his individual opportunity when ultimately the team is probably not that strong

This is exactly the problem with modern America.

Coach of the Seahawks wrote:

Well 4x8 rolls around and Runner B is first leg. He jogs it..

A few years ago in a huge invitational around here, the leadoff girl from a large school in the 4*8, walked the last 100-200m of her first leg. Very Weird!!

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

or............. wrote:

if 2 of your 4 guys really are not that great then why should he feel like he should sacrifice his individual opportunity when ultimately the team is probably not that strong

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is exactly the problem with modern America."

937, you condemn B for one instance of what C and D did their whole time on the team. Somehow for their last race everyone should put aside their personal goals for them? I don't think the OP said anything about how the whole team in general was affected by the one race, just the relay was mentioned. So it sounded like B and A were being asked to hurt their personal goals for two slackers, not a whole track team. B was solid in my book, forget C and D's dead weight asses.

Vim Fuego, if you mean the problem with society being half of it wants the other half to do all the work for them, so they can benefit...spot on.