Do you think Lance Armstrong will ever admit to doping?

lol...who else got the add for Lance Armstrong's FRS when they clicked on this thread? nice!

heyu wrote:

Why aren't you complaining about Eddie Mercks?

Why don't you head up to the Tom Simpson monument?

Cycling is what it is. It was what it was.

I think you'll find that it's not the doping that gets people riled up about Lance, it's the holier-than-thou attitude.

I don't really care if Lance doped or not, but why lie about it? That's why this subject gets people riled up; Armstrong would get more respect if he just said "Yeah, I did it.", then we could all move on.

BTW, it's EddY MerckX - if you are going to (needlessly) insult other posters, it's better if you don't display your own ignorance.

Its probably also fair to say that cycling enthusiasts do not doubt that LA was one of (if the not the) greatest cyclists of all time. His talent isn't being disputed.

RunningHigh wrote:

Its probably also fair to say that cycling enthusiasts do not doubt that LA was one of (if the not the) greatest cyclists of all time. His talent isn't being disputed.

I think that is a good point; there is no doubt that Armstrong is one of the greats - at least as far as the Grand Tours are concerned. To call him the greatest of all time would be a stretch, Eddy Merckx has already been mentioned in this thread and Merckx has a far superior record, but Armstrong is definitely up there.

RunningHigh wrote:

Its probably also fair to say that cycling enthusiasts do not doubt that LA was one of (if the not the) greatest cyclists of all time. His talent isn't being disputed.

Cycling enthusiasts wouldn't have Lance anywhere near the top 3, he would always be unlikely to make top 10.

Perhaps about 15 if you're being generous.

He doesn't come close to Merckx, Kelly or Hinault.

Lance doesn't come close to Merckx, Kelly or Hinault?

Yes he does, he won the Tour seven times, against some very good riders.

I would put him in the Tour all time top nine, with Bartali, Coppi, Bobet, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Lemond and Indurain.

How many of them didn't never ever dope?

Merckx and Hinault I'll give you, but not Kelly - he does have a better record in the Monuments, but not in the Grand Tours.

I intentionally wrote "one of the (if not the) greatest" to try an appease everybody to avoid an arguement! Oh well.

I heard one climb at last year's TdF was 4mins slower than 'normal' but I cannot remember the source. The inference was that now the sport is cleaner a difference in times has become apparant. I don't suppose anybody here saw/heard this and can remember more?

The Tour has never ever been 'clean' never ever will be. However, you can't read too much into the paces of climbs, as there are so many variables.

Can the Tour be won clean? Sure it can. Has it been won clean? Yes I'm sure it has several times.

RunningHigh wrote:

I intentionally wrote "one of the (if not the) greatest" to try an appease everybody to avoid an arguement! Oh well.

I heard one climb at last year's TdF was 4mins slower than 'normal' but I cannot remember the source. The inference was that now the sport is cleaner a difference in times has become apparant. I don't suppose anybody here saw/heard this and can remember more?

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/looking-back-on-letour-post-collection.html

RunningHigh wrote:

I intentionally wrote "one of the (if not the) greatest" to try an appease everybody to avoid an arguement! Oh well.

Discussions about which athlete is the greatest are good arguments to have - having an opinion is the basis of all sports.

I heard one climb at last year's TdF was 4mins slower than 'normal' but I cannot remember the source. The inference was that now the sport is cleaner a difference in times has become apparant. I don't suppose anybody here saw/heard this and can remember more?

I'm not sure you can sensibly make that claim. Are the records weather adjusted (rhetorical question, no), is the course always the same length (no), where does the climb come in the stage, and where does the climbing stage come in the overall race, etc. People have claimed that slower climbs demonstrate less doping, but they only hold water if you don't think about it too deeply.

I don't think he will admit to doping until after the current crop of American runners admit that they are doping.

Superb Joe, thank you. I am not sure if that is what I read before, but it is interesting all the same.

only me wrote:

I'm not sure you can sensibly make that claim. Are the records weather adjusted (rhetorical question, no), is the course always the same length (no), where does the climb come in the stage, and where does the climbing stage come in the overall race, etc. People have claimed that slower climbs demonstrate less doping, but they only hold water if you don't think about it too deeply.

I don't believe I made any claim.

Your comments are however valid. I would also add that doping riders probably do a fair a bit of bluffing so not to look obvious (ala Vino in 2007): It would be sensible to ride normally on stages where breakaways won't cost you, but pull off incredible (literally) performances on stages which are known to split the peloton. This makes it all very tricky to draw conclusions.

RunningHigh wrote:

I don't believe I made any claim.

I didn't say you did, but certainly some people have made that claim (and you have repeated their claims) - but sometimes "you" doesn't mean "you" personally.

only me wrote:

Merckx and Hinault I'll give you, but not Kelly - he does have a better record in the Monuments, but not in the Grand Tours.

Comparing Kelly and Lance's palmares, and there is absolutely no comparison I'm afraid.

Lance will always be the 'greatest' for those who think there is only one race. For everyone else, he's a bit down the pecking order.

Armstrong or De Vlaemick? Gimme a break.

Lance is an American. In that country, by law, citizens are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Heresay does not constitute proof. Corrupted blood samples tested in violation of WADA protocol do not constitute proof. Decades of clean blood samples taken and tested within regulations are pursuasive. Therefore, presume Lance is innocent.

[quote]juanwilliams wrote:

Must be something about Texas that breeds serial liars:

Lance

Clemens

rojo/wejo

George W. Bush

Know what you are saying. Clemens is from Ohio. Bush is from Connecticut. Those Yankees are not Texans nor Texians.

Right after Viren and Cierpinski do.