High School girl running high mileage

Sebby is a retard wrote:

Sebby, stop shitting up all the threads about young people running moderately high mileage, marathons, etc. It's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. Running a lot is not bad for teenage girls as long as they have their diet together and aren't overdoing the intensity. How can I back this? Oh, how about a doctorate in bioengineering. What do you have? You're full of shit, so stop trying to prevent people from running how they want to run.

Just read over my posts on the two different threads and feel very confident that I did not come off as a retard in any of them. By the way, here is one of my posts to the sister of the 15 year old boy wanting to run a marathon. Does it sound like I am trying to prevent him from running the way he wants? No, it sounds like encouragement and well thought out advice.

"Believe me, I don't feel strongly either way on this. If it was my own son, who happens to be 16 and is running for his high school, I would discourage him from doing it. However, if the choice is quitting the team and playing video games all day or training for a marathon, then I say go for the marathon. Obviously he made a choice not to join the track team, so he may need the motivation of running a marathon to get him out the door. Better than being lazy.

What none of us know is any background on this kid, except he ran 30 miles a week in cross country. Was that his first real training of his life? Did he handle that training well? Is he injury prone? Is he physically mature for his age? Does he have someone to train with? Is he getting training advice from anyone with knowledge? More information would be helpful."

Sebby you point out a potential real problem for teenage girl runners. That is good to bring that everyone's attention. But if that potential problem is kept in mind and addressed (just as millions of adult runners do) then why do you still advise against a young runner slolwy building up their mileage level. Their is no studies that suggest you shouldn't and there are countless studies that suggest that aerobic development is what take the longest to develop to a high level so it only makes sense to start that early on under the guidance of a proper, slow and incremental program. Yet you still advise and cry againts it. Why is that?

Dr. Joe Vigil gives presentations at conferences (and I think we can agree not to argue his credentials and expertise) in which he says that the main difference between 18 yr old Kenyan runners and 18 year old American runners is that the 18 yr old Kenyans have 10,000 more miles of aerobic development in them and that that is the main reason why they perform better in their running career. Many other top American coaches have echoed the same sentiments, that they have to turn to higher mileage for their post collegiate athletes because they are thousands of miles behind their Kenyans counterparts and have to play catch-up for most of their post collegiate careers.

Yet you still advocate lower mileage for our youth under the reasoning that there are potential problems. Might a better approach be to encourage them to run the higher mileage if they wish to (only if the wish to) but to do so in a safe manner that addresses and mitigates the potential problems.

- MPR

Sebby is a retard wrote:

Sebby, stop shitting up all the threads about young people running moderately high mileage, marathons, etc. It's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. Running a lot is not bad for teenage girls as long as they have their diet together and aren't overdoing the intensity. How can I back this? Oh, how about a doctorate in bioengineering. What do you have? You're full of shit, so stop trying to prevent people from running how they want to run.

Having a doctorate in bioengineering is irrelevant to this particular issue. Would you please post links to the studies that you or others have conducted proving that running 50-60 mpw starting at age 14 has no negative effects on the body at age 30, 40 and beyond? If you have none, then you are just offering a baseless opinion like everyone else.

MPR wrote:.

Sebby you point out a potential real problem for teenage girl runners. That is good to bring that everyone's attention. But if that potential problem is kept in mind and addressed (just as millions of adult runners do) then why do you still advise against a young runner slolwy building up their mileage level. Their is no studies that suggest you shouldn't and there are countless studies that suggest that aerobic development is what take the longest to develop to a high level so it only makes sense to start that early on under the guidance of a proper, slow and incremental program. Yet you still advise and cry againts it. Why is that?

Dr. Joe Vigil gives presentations at conferences (and I think we can agree not to argue his credentials and expertise) in which he says that the main difference between 18 yr old Kenyan runners and 18 year old American runners is that the 18 yr old Kenyans have 10,000 more miles of aerobic development in them and that that is the main reason why they perform better in their running career. Many other top American coaches have echoed the same sentiments, that they have to turn to higher mileage for their post collegiate athletes because they are thousands of miles behind their Kenyans counterparts and have to play catch-up for most of their post collegiate careers.

Yet you still advocate lower mileage for our youth under the reasoning that there are potential problems. Might a better approach be to encourage them to run the higher mileage if they wish to (only if the wish to) but to do so in a safe manner that addresses and mitigates the potential problems.- MPR[/quote]

Actually, you and I agree pretty much. The reason I am against MOST kids doing higher mileage at a young age, especially girls, is because they aren't being careful. Many of them go from sedentary video game junkies to becoming addicted to running instead and end up pushing too hard too soon. With girls, as I said, many of them just don't have the maturity to really eat the way they should. Absolutely the ones that have the proper background, increase their mileage intelligently and get the proper nutrition, should be good with some higher mileage, even as teenagers. Unfortunately that is rarely the case and that is why I urge caution. As with all running, it really needs to be individualized based on the young runners maturity level, background, biomechanics, etc. Most young runners just get excited about their success, start training like crazy and really have no plan.

That has always been one of my biggest points. That instead of crying out against promoting organized running programs for kids and kids taking running seriously as a sport, we should be focused on promoting proper programs, good training habits and proper nutrition.

The United States has as much talent and more resources than almost any country in the world but often this talent is held down because of over caution and improper coaching and education. Instead we should promote kids doing it properly and encourage them to pursue as much as they want under the guidance of a good program and this must be individualized. Giving out blanket mileage levels for chronological ages is a cop out. It's more involved than that, and chronological age is just 1 of about 8-10 factors to consider.

If we just conclude that most people are dumb and will not do it right so we set a dumb downed low standard, we will continue to get a dumb downed class of athletes who can't compete against the East Africans. We are better than that and America is better than that.

Let's use our reason and insite and logic and instead of coaching or advising by a dumb downed standard, lets look at the situation from a real standpoint and learn from what the best are doing, not just our local best. What are the real experts saying, not just our local "experts". If their are problems, how do we address those not just run away from them.

I think the physiology is very clear, that aerobic development is hugely important and mileage is a key component of that and one that takes the long term to develop. We can't and shouldn't try to hide from that. Instead we should ask how we do it in a safe and proper manner so we can instruct the kids that do have that appetite for it, instead of keeping them away from it because "most" kids won't do it right.

Sorry my conclusion is that coaches in this thread anyway appear to be concerned only with aerobic development, their own success (as coaches), and NOT the lifelong concern of these children and the effect of running on their bodies other than their aerobic development.

So they ignore the concerned people and just agree with each other.

But whatever. No other sport is any different. If they want to run, and their parents allow it, it's not affecting me. Let them run. Run lots of miles, why not start at age 6 or 8 or 10? 14 sounds old. Why not 60, 70 or 80 mpw? Whatever they can handle, as long as they build up properly to those miles. I have no doubt they can handle it now if they gradually increase their mileage under the direction of a coach. Maybe we will win more international championships, coaches will get lots of glory, and who really cares about these kids when they hit their 30s, 40s and beyond? How will their knees and hips and ankles be doing when they hit 40 if they run 60 mpw at age 14 and are running 100+ mpw soon thereafter?

Running has a cumulative effect on the body. I've lived it. And I'm betting most of the coaches on this thread have lived it if they are still running and they are being honest. Aerobic systems might improve but joints will most likely take a beating.

I am in my 60s and have been running on the high side of 50mpw for most of my life (the miles would be higher except that whole "have a job, have a family" thing sometimes cuts into training). I run with a lot of guys, and a couple of ladies in their 40s and 50s who have been running similar miles or higher (a couple of them were professional athletes in their younger years) Most of us have no orthopedic problems from the running. Those who have problems, it seems to be correlated to their genetic predisposition to such ailments, not to their running. Oh yeah, I also have daughters in their early 30s who I let start running with me at about 5yrs old. They ran high school and college track and XC with some success, and continue to be top local road racers. One of them is now running 6 mos into her second pregnancy with no problems. What does this all mean? Generalizations tell you nothing about individuals, and your personal experience is not necessarily a good basis for predicting what is good for others.

I think your concern is genuine and well meaning. I appreciate that, I really do.

But you give no evidence to back up your concern other than you and your friends have aches and pains. Where any or all of you high mileage runners as kids? Did you have proper coaching and follow a proper program your whole time as arunner? Did you always do proper warm-up and cool-down routines? Did you ever have injuries from other sports? Did you ever have your biomechanics checked to make sure you were runing efficiently? The answer to all of these will be important and seperate you from most everyone else. So you really can't imply your logic on all kids.

The mileage levels we are talking about aren't necessary all that high (60-90 minutes a day) but it may appear so it you out of your frame of reference. Do you know it's not uncommon to see world class runners run 100-140 miles per week. Many Kenyan teens run 80-120 miles per week. One recently broke 13 minutes for the 5k at a 17 yr old.

To more specificly address you concerns. There are numerous studies that show running, when done properly and with proper warm-up and cool-downs is actually beneficial to the joints and bones. Not a degenrative thing like you suggest. Running with other injuries and bad biomechanics and using improper routines is what can cause the problems with joints. Our bodies are made to run if we don't get in their way. I am sorry that you feel otherwise but the science simply doesn't agree with you.

I know of many people who have been running lots of mileage for 20+ years and have no joint problems, I am one of them. Started running as a kid of just 8 yrs old and never had any significant joint problems and I'm 41 yrs old now.

There is no glory in coaching believe me. I can make far more money and get far more recognition in other pursuits. In general if the athelte does well they get the credit and if they do poorly the coahces get the blame. I don't know of any running coaches who do it for the glory/fame.

My agenda rather is to stop the misconceptions and personal limitations that so many people try to apply on others without solid reasoning. It is one thing that I have seen limiting out sport and kids taking part in and succeeding in our sport.

I do not want to force anyone to run or run more than they want to, just guide them properly if they do want to run and run alot. Just as I believe your concern is genuine, please believe my motivations are as well

To MPR, thanks for your well thought out posts that actually bring up good points as opposed to just ripping on someone that doesn't think the exact way they do.

As I said in an earlier post, despite my being overly cautious about kids doing too much mileage, we do think alike in a lot of ways and I agree with a lot of your points. One point I would like to make is the difference in MOST U.S. kids nowadays, compared to children growing up in Africa or to U.S. kids growing up in the 60's and 70's like I did. When I was a kid, I rode my bike or walked just about everywhere, not thinking twice of getting to my friends house several miles away. In addition to the walking and biking, I am sure I put on 1000's of miles of running by just playing, racing my friends to school a mile away, etc. By the time I started organzied running in junior high school, I was pretty darn fit without ever having an organized training plan. We trained pretty hard when I was 13-15 years old. We didn't do crazy miles, but I ran up to 10 miles no problem and even did some two a day workouts at our summer training camp. I never burned out and went on to be a very competitive high school, college and post collegiate runner.

So with my own experience, why am I so reluctant for kids to do too much at a young age? Simply put, the majority of U.S. kids are not nearly as active as they were years ago, or the current Kenyan children that run to and from school. So by the time the U.S. kids get to middle school and interested in running, they do not come in with the same background and their joints, tendons, etc. are not nearly as ready for a lot of mileage. Of course this is a generalization, but overall it is a fact that kids get much less activity than they used to. Because of that, doing too much mileage too soon is a shock to an inactive pre-pubescent body that is not ready for 90 minute runs. Add to that fact, most middle school coaches don't have the experience to bring these kids along properly. In our town there are two middle schools; one with a coach that pushes the kids really hard and one where they don't do nearly enough training. Once these kids get to high school, many of the kids that were pushed really hard are no longer running or aren't improving. The kids that weren't pushed, continue to run and improve in high school. The coach of the burned out kids grew up in the 60's and 70's when these kids were more prepared, but he hasn't adjusted to the sedentary lifestyle of many of these kids. For these kids to quit running before they even get to high school is sad.

Sorry this is so long, but a lot of time and thought has been put in to this. My kids are teenage runners and I am trying to be very careful with them and instill a work ethic in them that will carry them over into the rest of their lives.

Sebby, I agree with your points. I think that key is an active pedestrian life style early on and then very slowly and gradually building up mileage as you go along. But if you are consistent and start at a young age this may be pretty decent mileage by the time you hit high school.

I think that were most kids, as well as adults for that matter, run into problems is they increase either quantity or quality to quickly in a short period of time. In my mind you have to be consistent and very slow and incremental in your increases to have long term success with higher mleage. I think we are on the same page there.

I also believe you are correct, that high mileage without the framework of a proper program and the safe guards to mitagate the risks, is not a good idea. And unfortunately not that many middle schools or even high schools (although there are more than there use to be) who have coaches with the background to properly supervise higher mileage running. In order for the US to keep it recent resurgance in distance running going I think we are going to have to change that.

My hope and reason for posting on this thread in the first place is to make people think through the situation and not just have knee jerk responses. It's not as simple as saying she's 14 and runs higher mileage so that is bad without knowing some details. Maybe if she really loves it, has built up properly and has the right coach and safe guards in place it's totally fine and if so that is a good thing.

I guess my point is we can't just see an age and mileage level and make a snap judgement. There are to many other factors to consider as I listed in my original post on page 1 of this thread.

I believe Meserat Defar and Linet Masai were high mileage youngsters and I am very glad they didn't grow up in the U.S. where people would have tried to stop them. Our sports would be poorer without them.

haven't read the thread but Japanese girls sometimes do 2 hour runs on the track, entirely

w/ no problems

ddsdffd wrote:

haven't read the thread but Japanese girls sometimes do 2 hour runs on the track, entirely

w/ no problems

How do you know there are no problems, especially long term? Most of the posts here that are either against doing the higher mileage or like me that are just encouraging caution, are talking about the long term affects of doing this kind of mileage at such a young age.

I agree with MPR, in fact there was an article in a local paper - "University research proves exercise keeps us young". I happen to know the researcher/doctor (Tarnopolsky) who was a runner himself, including ultra's and adventure racing - he is involved with a group of kids who do this AR (in moderation) as well. The point is to get kids involved with aerobic activity that doesn't have to be hugely competitive, as a basic development of activity in a computer world. The orientation (in fact a related activity is the sport of orienteering itself) is away from the HS mentality of win at all costs and take one for the team.

Sebby - yes kids have to be introduced to mileage gradually, not an easy thing to do when the emphasis (in HS) is in winning right away. Is 90 minutes too much? again it is an individual thing. The problem too often is that programs are about team dynamics (what's good for one must be okay for everyone) and not really about the individual. I would rather see some (not all perhaps) runners build up their mileage slowly (especially if inherently slow-twitch types) than just doing intervals/speed, which is too often the norm. The other thing, in terms of "Burnout", is discouraging the practice of kids chasing each other in training simply because it is the expedient thing to do. I've seen more kids drop out as they plateau from this type of "coaching" (even heard a coach explain to an athlete that they should stay with that coach as he had people to chase in workouts - his words!!), then can't figure out why too many of the kids stop improving or plateau when they might otherwise still be improving.

The problem with generalizing is that some athletes may have problems regardless of what they do (biomechanical issues or other problems), but that shouldn't mean that others don't pursue their development based upon what they themselves can handle. It is likely (as MPR has said) that more athletes will reach their potential than actually do in the predominatly scholastic-influenced environment (HS/College) which rules the sport for younger runners.

It's not up to me to say whether this particular individual should build up to 90 minute runs at 14yo - I likely would have them wait to see how they are handling progressivly increasing amounts, and keep in mind not just their chronological age but their physiological one (where they are in terms of puberty) as well, as long as they are also mentally ready for an increase as well. This comes down to communication and having an awareness of this person in terms of personal and medical histories (to some limited degree). Someone with a known history of ED needs to be treated with much more caution than a motivated athlete who has already gone through puberty and has shown the physical and mental ability to handle an increased volume/duration of work. The slow-twith types absolutely (if biomechanically capable) need to do this if they are to improve and wish to become competitive with those who are faster them them (FT-types).

sd north county wrote:

I was hoping someone could give me some information on the negative affects of a high school girl - age 14 - running high mileage. for example long runs over 90 minute once per week and a couple other runs close to 75 + minutes per week. Is this ok, or what are the adverse affects both physically and mentally.

Thanks in advance for any helpful information.

Some recommended reading:

On The Wings of Mercury : The Lorraine Moller Story

Lorraine Moller is a living legend in the world of New Zealand running and athletics. Four times Olympic contender, Commonwealth Games medal winner, Boston marathoner, World Track and Field Champion, three times winner of the Avon Women's World Marathon. This is the remarkable story of the making of an Olympian. One who as a schoolgirl, ran barefoot with her father through the pine forests near her home in Putaruru, in the Waikato, and went on to win a bronze medal in the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona. It is also the candid story of Lorraine's own struggles and challenges as she dealt with a sporting world that wasn't quite ready for her. In her own words Lorraine looks back on her development as a world class competitor, the people she raced and trained with -- Arthur Lydiard, Dick Quax, Rod Dixon, Anne Audain, Alison Roe, to mention a few, along with those who helped her reach her dreams. Lorraine reveals the strategies and coping mechanisms required to compete at the highest level.And she gives, in On the Wings of Mercury - The Lorraine Moller Story, an insider's view of the amateur versus professional athlete controversy, and her involvement in overturning the authorities when it came to women competing in the marathon at the Olympics. Here is a portrait of an extraordinary life: intense, highly entertaining, intelligent and very funny. Like a novel, with Lorraine as the heroine, and the Roman god Mercury as her guide, On the Wings of Mercury will redefine sports autobiography.

Lorraine Moller is one of New Zealand's greatest women distance runners. Four times an Olympic contender, winner of three Avon Women's Marathons, winner of the Boston Marathon, three times the winner of the Osaka international Ladies' Marathon, and a Commonwealth Games medallist, she is indeed a living legend of the runn ing world. Lorraine began running barefoot with her father near her home in Putaruru and went on to win a bronze medal in the marathon at the 1992 Barcelona Summer Olympic Games. Here, in her own words, Lorraine looks back on a golden era of athletics in New Zealand and the personalities she ran with -- Arthur Lydiard, Dick Quax, rod Dixon, Anne Audain, Allison roe and others. She traces her development as a world-class competitor and reveals the strategies and coping techniques that took her to the world stage. A longtime battler for equality and professionalism in distance running, Lorraine is upfront about her struggles with officialdom. With the roman god Mercury as her guide, Lorraine competed with immense courage and determination at the highest level. Here is a candid, personal story of an extraordinary life: intense, insightful and highly entertaining.

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‘The best autobiography and possibly the best book I have read, full stop. Sports books are a dime a dozen but this book offers much much more. It’s the story of Lorraine’s journey, the journey of a great athlete, but above all else, a great person.’ - Chris Pilone, Olympic Coach to Hamish Carter

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Sebby has got some of his posts right on(accept the ones he's discouraging against running races of this length). You need a lot of nutrition and calories to run marathon(and get into training). Africans just run so much better and more effecienctly than Americans. So we should all train like the Africans.

-END OF STORY-

Once a Young marathoner wrote:

Sebby has got some of his posts right on(accept the ones he's discouraging against running races of this length). You need a lot of nutrition and calories to run marathon(and get into training). Africans just run so much better and more effecienctly than Americans. So we should all train like the Africans.

-END OF STORY-

I agree that we should train like the Africans, but the problem is that our kids lifestyles are always going to be different than the African kids. That puts us behind before we even begin and to try to make up for it by doing even higher mileage is dangerous.

One thing I will say though that somewhat contradicts what I have said previously about the sedentary lifestyle is that soccer is helping out quite a bit. So many kids are playing soccer at younger and younger ages and getting some decent running in, similar to what kids did on their own before the 1980's. I think a kid with a great soccer background could get into higher mileage much quicker than the overweight kid playing video games all day long could. The active soccer kids would be more likely to pursue running anyway so that helps.

I appreciate the concern demonstrated by so many of you. I've built up my mileage gradually, starting at ~20mpw in middle school. I've seen a sports nutritionist; I eat a well balanced diet and get enough fat and protein. My blood is checked regularly for iron deficiency; I've had bone density scanning as well. Heck, I've even had my VO2 max measured. I have continued to mature physically and emotionally since I began running.

I'm not being pressured to run by anybody at all. I run because I truly love the sport and the feeling of being on my own two feet. Surely most of you can understand that almost primal love of running. My parents and coaches know this and they are usually the ones holding me back. If I'm feeling sick or overly fatigued I rest and taking care of my body is my priority.

USArunforeva wrote:

I appreciate the concern demonstrated by so many of you. I've built up my mileage gradually, starting at ~20mpw in middle school. I've seen a sports nutritionist; I eat a well balanced diet and get enough fat and protein. My blood is checked regularly for iron deficiency; I've had bone density scanning as well. Heck, I've even had my VO2 max measured. I have continued to mature physically and emotionally since I began running.

I'm not being pressured to run by anybody at all. I run because I truly love the sport and the feeling of being on my own two feet. Surely most of you can understand that almost primal love of running. My parents and coaches know this and they are usually the ones holding me back. If I'm feeling sick or overly fatigued I rest and taking care of my body is my priority.

It sounds like you do have a much better idea of what you are doing than most teenage girls do and are taking the necessary precautions. I applaud you for your dedication and I hope you have a long and enjoyable running career. It is such a great sport and I like to see people treat it as a lifetime activity, not just something to do in high school and college and then quit. Keep doing the right things and being smart about everything and best of luck to you.