Peter Snell Calls US Middle Distance Running "Pathetic"

w1/2 is not a major medal. neither is wic, wxc.

suckonthesetinyballs wrote:

Peter Snells times are impressive, but nothing spectacular. He doesn't have much room to speak.

Distance Time Place Date

800 m 1:44.3 NR Christchurch 1962

1000 m 2:16.6 NR Auckland 1964

1500 m 3:37.6 1964

Mile 3:54.1 1964

you do realise he ran them on dirt/grass, possibly 1s/lap slower & also rarely ran 1500 except in games ( ran few in total )

in addition, i don't believe he often had standard pacing to bell as today ( he did in his 800, but the pacer shot off too fast which snell lamented after ) & had to make the most of what was offered in the race

given that, his times on a standard '70s track ( just time traveled to such ) woud be more like

1'42+

2'14

3'33

3'50

& for mile ( forget 1500 ) you can knock off easily another 1 - 2s for no proper pacing/uneven pace

he seemed to me a talent very comparable to an ovett

He wouldn't run 1:42. That's ridiculous.

It is not quite correct to call Willis a product of the American system. After all, he grew up in New Zealand, was given a certain mindset from its culture, and he ran sub 4 or close to it at 17 or 18 before going to Michigan. Over the years, in the distances, there has been quite a number of foreign men who have attended American universities and gone on to great things afterwards, a lot more than the number of Americans who have attended American universities and gone on to great things, despite the fact that there are a lot more American distance runners at American universities. Think of Abdi Bile or Nourredine Morceli or Bernard Lagat or Nick Willis or Henry Rono or Joaquim Cruz ...

You would have to call Willis and Blincoe products of the American system, way more so than any other.

Willis was and still is largely directed by Ron Warhurst, who clearly was his primary coach when he won his Bronze, upgraded to Silver Medal .

Blincoe ran for Marcus OSullivan at Nova and has run 3:35.50, 7:46, 13:10 and now 28:25 still has connections with Marcus who while an Irish Olympian has been head man at Nova for a while now.

BS wrote:

IF Peter Snell were born 24 years ago he would have a hard time matching the accomplishments of Nick Willis. When Snell ran the population of serious runners was 1/10th of what it is now and african runners were but a speck on the horizon.

You just became the author of one of the funniest nonsenses I have ever read. (But frankly, I read them quite frequently.) To the contrary, the current world competition in the 400-1500 m (but even the 3000 m) is an utter joke. Africans on these distances are global B-athletes, who became dominant primarily due to the fact that white runners left track almost completely in mid 80's, and the advance of EPO around 1995 is another story.

Still, white Americans must be reasonable. With the current average height of US white males 179 cm, you can't expect that your country would become the source of a long distance talent. You simply grew too tall. Tall runners can be successful, but they are generally a rarity (e.g. Tergat 182/62), because they must be much leaner than small-frame guys to compensate their unfavourable VO2 max./VO2 ratio. Your only big advantage is thus advanced sports science and nutrition.

If you want some advice, here it is: Concentrate on the talent development in the 400-3000 m, where you have the biggest chances in the global competition. It is true that the body build of a white US male is a bit unfortunate, because despite a fitting height and somatotype, he is rather short-legged, which is a drawback in middle distances. But still, you have a huge 200-million population and most likely a persisting high variability in body types, due to the diverse origin of European immigrants. Or import young people from the Netherlands and northern Germany. That's the safest guarantee for the increase of your athletic potential.

Small Hispanics from Mexico can be a substitute (though rather second-rate) in long distances and the marathon, but they certainly won't contribute anything else to your society.

suckonthesetinyballs wrote:

Peter Snells times are impressive, but nothing spectacular. He doesn't have much room to speak.

Distance Time Place Date

800 m 1:44.3 NR Christchurch 1962

1000 m 2:16.6 NR Auckland 1964

1500 m 3:37.6 1964

Mile 3:54.1 1964

I admire your intellectual brilliance. The performances of today's runners like Bekele, El Guerrouj or Rudisha also aren't spectacular...by standards achieved in 2060.

1. Other sports only slightly take away 800-mile talent from track and field in US. BB,FB,Soccer affect other events more than middle distance

2. 800-mile talent isn't focused enough at college as relays, multi event racing, etc take precedence over individual progress in event.

3. Although US is wealthy there isn't enough money for middle distance athletes to turn pro in large numbers so development post collegiate is stagnant.

Conclusion: Snell is correct in assuming US has the resources to develop top end middle distance athletes, but US doesn't yet have the right formula for getting this accomplished.

Coaching talent, racing opportunities and financial backing are all not at correct levels to systematically develop a strong group of middle distance athletes. This is substantiated by the fact that there are very few areas (are there more than 1 even) in the US where post collegiate development take place.

What Snell and other in the Lydiard cult don't want to face up to is that athletes coached by Renato Canova and Colm O'Connell would wipe the track with every athlete Lydiard ever coached, Snell included.

Considering that no top endurance athlete since 1995 was competetive without blood doping, you could rather address your contemptuous notes to top world pharmacists.

Hoppy wrote:

1. Other sports only slightly take away 800-mile talent from track and field in US. BB,FB,Soccer affect other events more than middle distance

2. 800-mile talent isn't focused enough at college as relays, multi event racing, etc take precedence over individual progress in event.

To the contrary, soccer is one of the biggest exhausters of a 800 m talent. By the way, the global competetion in this distance has always been second-rate, in contrast with the 1500/mile that at least attracted some decent athletes.

Basketball and your "football" target a tiny fraction of the population (something like 5%), with extreme body size, and are the least likely cause of any sports decline.

H

Czech guy wrote:

Small Hispanics from Mexico can be a substitute (though rather second-rate) in long distances and the marathon, but they certainly won't contribute anything else to your society.

You're a f***ing joke. And you're dead wrong about the frequency of blood doping.

Really? Did you attend elementary / middle school in the US and witness all remotely athletic boys (whether 60 pounds or not) sign-up for pee-wee football, baseball, and basketball? Because at least in the South, they definitely do. Sure, the ones that make it in the pros have extreme body size. But the vast majority have very normal (even small) body size, and would still prefer to spend their athletic careers playing "average" football and basketball for their middle school / high school than to try out for the track and cross-country teams, even if they ran a stand-out mile as a 10-year old. For boys, especially, the talent (generally) goes elsewhere.

long dong silver wrote:

It doesn't have to attract our best athletes. It just has to attract ENOUGH talent to do big things on the world stage. And it does attract ENOUGH talent to do big things on the world stage. That's why it should do big things on the world stage.

you just have to have a lot of people running even if they aren't your best athletes, and you'll find a couple Olympic medalists?

that's great news.

ljajladf wrote:He wouldn't run 1:42. That's ridiculous.

his wr on grass lasted ~ 11y

i've seen 90%+ of all <1'43 runs ( missed coupla cruz's 1'42s in mid-'80s )

believe me, if boaz can run 1'42.95, you can bet your bottom $ snell wouda run quicker

Czech guy wrote:Or import young people from the Netherlands and northern Germany. That's the safest guarantee for the increase of your athletic potential

drivel

pray tell us the german/dutch records for 800/1500

i'm sure they'll be at least 1'42.5/3'29.0 ????????????????

I also would like to point out the fact that, whether or not we choose to identify Willis as an "American-system" runner, I think it is safe to say that Willis' olympic medal was sort of a freak happening (not that I am trying to diminish his accomplishement). But, it was definitely his day. As a matter of fact, I remember watching interviews where even he seemed incredulous that he was able to pick up the bronze.

klajdf wrote:

Really? Did you attend elementary / middle school in the US and witness all remotely athletic boys (whether 60 pounds or not) sign-up for pee-wee football, baseball, and basketball? Because at least in the South, they definitely do. Sure, the ones that make it in the pros have extreme body size. But the vast majority have very normal (even small) body size, and would still prefer to spend their athletic careers playing "average" football and basketball for their middle school / high school than to try out for the track and cross-country teams, even if they ran a stand-out mile as a 10-year old. For boys, especially, the talent (generally) goes elsewhere.

Thank you. Now you defined the major problems of your sport system.

ventolin^3 wrote:

Czech guy wrote:Or import young people from the Netherlands and northern Germany. That's the safest guarantee for the increase of your athletic potential

drivel

pray tell us the german/dutch records for 800/1500

i'm sure they'll be at least 1'42.5/3'29.0 ????????????????

How many German and Dutch basketball players do you know, apart from Dirk Nowitzki? And yet, the Netherlands and Germany have the highest base of potential basketball talents in the world - together with the US white population that doesn't compete in this sport either (thinking that they can't jump in a sport, where body size matters above else).

You would be very surprised, how low the global competition in some athletic disciplines actually is. Today's track is basically a Third World sport, where Africans compete against other Africans. It can't be taken seriously at all.

I think Snell is still smarting from the beating that 19 year old American, Jim Ryun gave him back in 1965.