Your Top Three 10000m runners All-Time, Lady easily runs 4:28.67 last 1600m of a 10000m

Vent3

Please Boutayeb was trained by Said Aouita and ran in his camp. Have you forgotten Aouita ran 27:26 in his debut and the WR was 27:13 also- my goodness do you read other people posts?

Said Aouita followed whoever lead and only took the lead with 240m to go & only kicked the last 90m & still post a sub 60 last lap. He ran to win and certainly could have gone alot faster. It was Aouita who was the first man under:

sub 7:30 in the 3000m

sub 13 in the 5000m

and he ran that one 10000m to let people know he could have ruled that event as well. He DEFINITELY could have been the first under 27 minutes and not Boutayeb.

Did you forget Aouita won 115 out of 119 races from Sept 83 to Sept 90. I'm thinking about the talent and the history of the two athletes and Said Aouita would have owned Brahim Boutayeb in the 10000m.

I have Boutayeb's race on videotape.

It was one of the most impressive 10000m races that I've seen.

I agree that Aouita would have had no chance in the 10k that day, as Kimeli, Antibo and Tanui would have destroyed him long before the finish. He had enough with his one try at 10k, almost outkicked by Nenow, and never ran it again.

Also I think Renato Canova said Boutayeb trained at least some of the time with Antibo.

Remember, when the East Block/Soviet Union broke up, the coaches were up for bidding. Many went to China.

J.R. wrote:

This is a good thread to see the real idiots, who think drugs are the only way to succeed.

Don't forget the idiots who think drugs don't exist and that cheating doesn't exist.

you clearly didn't see that '88 10k

as for his race against nenow, there is obviously a reason why he left his push right to the very end - he was wasted by 24 laps of hard work & that was all he coud muster at the end

& he didn't "just run to win" - he knew that shoudn't have been a problem - he ran to set the time, & 27'26 was close to his limit, otherwise we wouda had a long push from 2 or 3km out to get the wr, but he coudn't

he wouda been lucky to break 27'20 at the time & talk of 27'00 is nonsense

however, anyone who saw brahim in seoul race wouda had no doubt he was a big <<27'10 talent that day on the circuit

as for his 115/119 record - he lost to cram twice out of their 2 meetings, never raced coe nor ovett ( albeit later was past it by mid-'80s )

he spent most of those years beating up on 7'40/13'15 kenyan bums

his big win/loss record is fundamentally flawed

JR and Vent3

Said Aouita never trained for the 10000m and debuted with one of the top 10 All-Time at that period. Said Aouita range is what hurt him as he often flirted competing in the 1500m, 2000m, 3000m, 5000m and threw in 800m, St, and 10000m. Boutayeb was a protege of Said Aouita for a couple years getting his training directly from Said Aouita- they later had disagreements that led to their seperation. I've seen just about ever race of Boutayeb and most of Aouita's as well.

Before his 10000m race Aouita had just set a personal best in the 1500m 3:29.45 in the 1500m in Aug 1985 and then was injuried much of 1986. Had he trained and concentrated on the 10000m he would have no serious competition! The man won 115 of 119 races

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsNuzBGZHo0

in a span out 7 years and DIDN'T TRAIN for the 10000m in his DEBUT and still posted of the fastest time ever in that period!

you seem to forget aouita was 5k wr holder

the amount of training for that ensures you are guaranteed to run a world class 10k off it with NO specific 10k training

27'20+ ability off 13'00 training is entirely expected

if he concentrated all his efforts in '88 on 10k, i'm sure he wouda threatened 27'13, but the one thing guaranteed woud be that he wouda had no chance in his beloved 1500m with his abilty drifting out to something 3'31/3'32

if he'd run the 10k in seoul it wouda been seen as even more avoiding cram/coe/abdi

& again, that 115/119 record was inflated with a lot of bums

where were races against cram/coe/ovett/abdi/steve scott/etc ???

Aouita raced Ovett in the final of the 5000m in 1987. Aouita won handily, Ovett placed 10th I think.

Three of the athletes repeatedly mentioned repeatedly in this thread are also primary stars in two of the greatest Championship 10000m ever**. Kenenisa Bekele vs. Haile Gebrsellasie in 2003 World Championships and Wang Junxia vs clock in 1993 World Championships.

**2003 World Championships 10000m

Haile ran his last 5000m in 12:58.8 only to fall short to Kenenisa Bekele's 12:57.7 to complete a sub 26:50.

**1993 World Championships 10000m

Wang Junxia strolls along allowing the field to feel they have a shot at the Gold medal. Around 8200m she begans her drive running each of the last four laps faster and faster. Running last 1600m in 4:28.7- with her last 3 laps of 68.5, 67.5, 60.4.

month later runs 29:41WR

with her last 3000m under 8:30

regardless of what she was on if anything- never proved or failed any drug test- those are some of the greatest distance races EVER!

ventolin^3 wrote:

you seem to forget aouita was 5k wr holder

the amount of training for that ensures you are guaranteed to run a world class 10k off it with NO specific 10k training

27'20+ ability off 13'00 training is entirely expected

if he concentrated all his efforts in '88 on 10k, i'm sure he wouda threatened 27'13, but the one thing guaranteed woud be that he wouda had no chance in his beloved 1500m with his abilty drifting out to something 3'31/3'32

if he'd run the 10k in seoul it wouda been seen as even more avoiding cram/coe/abdi

& again, that 115/119 record was inflated with a lot of bums

where were races against cram/coe/ovett/abdi/steve scott/etc ???

There is no point in trying to prove your opinion is wrong. It is your opinion and you arrived at it by considering all the info available and you still think what you think. But consider the 10k WR when the 5k record went under 13:00? Aouita ran between 12:58 and 13:05 many times. Many times more than anyone else in his era. He seemed to never run slower than 13:05 except in championship competition. During this period he was the dominant 1500-3k-5k runner based on marks and depth. Cram was the only runner to have his number in any event.

Study what other active 5k/10k runners with 12:55-13:00 PRs did for 10k, like A. Pinto, or Felix Limo. This indicates ability around 26:55-27:05.

Now look at others with 27:05-27:15 ability (Mei, Antibo, Barrios, Jon Brown), they DIDN'T break 13:00. While it doesn't prove that Aouita could have run 27:00 and dominated, I say it lends credence to the probability.

Also, remember that Aouita won his only race by 2 seconds and he was spiked badly during the race. Bleeding badly from his shin, with his shoe soaked in blood, he proclaimed, "The 10,000 is nothing." Bravado perhaps? Aouita was known for that, but he was also known for facing and destroying all comers during his era. 7:40/13:20 bums? I don't think so. He was the most dominant runner of his era in three events.

Second under 3:30 in 1500

First under 7:30 in 3k

wasn't he the first to break 4:50 and Cram's WR in the 2k?

First under 13:00 in 5k

... then AFTER all that he tries his hand at the 800. It is rumored that he wanted to run the 1500/5k in '88, but the schedule conflicted so he was going to try the 800/5k double, but he had an injury either before or during the Games that halted him at Bronze in the 800m. I don't know if this is true as I have read a LOT of things in 22 yrs and don't have the ability to check any of it anymore, but I would never doubt Aouita.

Love him or hate him (and there were plenty of both) you can't discount his depth of marks, many WR's, and range, dominant win/loss record, and number of medals. I don't think anyone since Zatopek has been so dominant and so successful over so many distances. Surely Geb and Bekele have a similar CV over 5k/10k, but to say that Aouita was at his limit at 27:20 is sheer and unadulterated ignorance.

newname wrote:

Study what other active 5k/10k runners with 12:55-13:00 PRs did for 10k, like A. Pinto, or Felix Limo. This indicates ability around 26:55-27:05.

Now look at others with 27:05-27:15 ability (Mei, Antibo, Barrios, Jon Brown), they DIDN'T break 13:00. While it doesn't prove that Aouita could have run 27:00 and dominated, I say it lends credence to the probability.

See, this is the key. Aouita was much faster than the others you mentioned around his speed for 5k, and he ran the 1500m in 3:29. None of those others came anywhere close to that, some of them not even 3:43. Of course they would be much faster at 10000m than him.

Vent3 and all you Aouita doubters what you think about newname post, LOL?

Stop showing your ignorance just because Aouita was a 1500m/5000m man and the others were 5000m/10000m doesn't mean they would run faster than him. Aoutia's only 10000m was off his 1500m/5000m training and if he trained for the 10000m he surely could have gone much faster.

Many people thought when he said would run the 800m it wouldn't be wise; however, didn't he defeat 800m specialist Joaquim Cruz (Olympic Champ), Jose Luis Barbosa, Peter Elliott, Johnny Gray (all of them sub 1:43 runners). He did that in only one season and posted a time of 1:43.86 while injuried.

Would have thought a 5000m runner could run 1:43.86 and grab a 800m Olympic bronze medal while injuried? NO noone thought a healthy Aouita had a chance in the 800m at the beginning of the season but he proved the world wrong.

Look at how many women who runs world class

1500m 3:59-4:05

and still run incredible world class 10000m

Elvan A

Tirunesh

Meseret

Shalanae

Paula

etc

Men who have run world class

1500m 3:29-3:33

Haile G

Kenenisa

Eluid Kipchoge

Daniel Komen

and still post incredible world class 10000m

So to say Aouita couldn't break sub 27 because he was too fast at 1500m is pure NONESENSE. Aouita was a different beast in era and breaking 27 minutes was surely with his capabilities if he trained for it and targeted the barrier.

newname wrote:Study what other active 5k/10k runners with 12:55-13:00 PRs did for 10k, like A. Pinto, or Felix Limo. This indicates ability around 26:55-27:05.

it indicates nothing of the sort

those latter had far better over distance endurance in ballpark of say a geb who coud run 3'31i ( worth maybe 3'29 outdoors & similar to aouita, but coud run 12'39 )

Now look at others with 27:05-27:15 ability (Mei, Antibo, Barrios, Jon Brown), they DIDN'T break 13:00. While it doesn't prove that Aouita could have run 27:00 and dominated, I say it lends credence to the probability

geb had endurance factor of ~ 12'39/26'22

apply that to career, elite 5k/10k guys & if they were say 13'05 - 13'10 at their best ->~ 27'16 - 27'26 which is just about the range they ran

apply geb's ratio to aouita's 12'58 ->27'01

but above shows geb had far superior endurance ratio at 3'31i/12'39 compared to aouita's 3'29/12'58, so aouita is no way entitled to have geb's ratio apply to him

he had no chance of the 10k in '88 once he had geared his training to 800/1500 that year

here is a tool which indicates how fast his 1500 wouda have to have been in '88 off say, 1'43.25 ability ( i'm being generous & giving his 1'43.86 as that as he ran a lot in 2nd lane ) in order to run the ~ 27'15 he wouda needed to threaten brahim

1'43.25 with

3'30.0 ->7'36.1 , 13'24.7, 28'50.0

3'29.0 ->7'31.9 , 13'15.0, 28'23.3

3'28.0 ->7'27.7 , 13'05.3, 27'56.5

down to 3'28 & he woud still be miles behind !

3'27.0 ->7'23.5 , 12'55.5, 27'29.7

( which perceptive viewers woud recognise as ballpark for morceli )

3'26.5 ->7'21.4 , 12'50.7, 27'16.3

( which perceptive viewers woud recognise as ballpark for hicham )

aouita wouda needed to have been in mid-3'26 form if he wanted to threaten for that 10k in '88 off his 800/1500 ability & that assumes he coud run his 10k with same "perfect endurance" as he ran the supposed 800/1500 times

in other words, once he'd decided on 800/1500 for '88, he had NO chance of medalling in the 10k let alone winning

No, moron, when you say you're being generous in giving Aouita a 1:43.25 what you're really doing is fudging numbers in order to make your point. What a moron. Give him 1:43.86 which was his pb. Then run the numbers. What a liar, distorting this and that to make an argument. Just give him his pb and then you'd find out that you stuck your foot in your mouth.

Ventolin3 you just won the top honor for most useless tool on the Letsrun's board. Given his 1:43.86 pb he would run x is a joke. If he concentrated and trained for the 10000m he would be able to run 1:43.86 or your generous 1:43.2. If Said Aouita trained specifically for the 10000m there is no doubt he would have blown his protege Boutayeb doors right off the hinges.

Can your tables calulate he fast Said would have run had he concentrated specifically on the 10000m? NO!

Again, Ventolin, you are invariably utilizing numbers to manipulate them to make preconceived points.

For example, you overlook the fact that in Aouita's first 5000 world record his km splits were: 2:35.14, 2:38.68, 2:37.18, 2:41.16, and 2:28.24. IF it served your argument, you'd probably flatten those out to say Aouita could have run something like 12:53, which would then improve his 10,000 potential, and so on....but, NO, you handpick numbers and then alter them here and there to craft an argument...

Also Ventolin, if you look at your own post, you're already giving Aouita a sub 3:27, since he ran 27:26, and you were saying he'd have to be able to run 3:27.00 in order to run 27:29. It's like you're not even thinking when you post this crap.

jennifer cruz wrote:

No, moron, when you say you're being generous in giving Aouita a 1:43.25 what you're really doing is fudging numbers in order to make your point. What a moron. Give him 1:43.86 which was his pb. Then run the numbers. What a liar, distorting this and that to make an argument. Just give him his pb and then you'd find out that you stuck your foot in your mouth.

f***ing idiot

the race is on youtube

plenty others say he ran fan far from perfect race running significant parts of the curves in lane 2, which if your idiotic brain had a clue, adds

~ pi * (extra radius)

with lane width being 1.22m

if he ran total of 3 or 4m extra on the 4 curves ->

803 or 804m in 1'43.86 -> for 800m of 1'43.3 - 1'43.4

factor in he almost certainly woudn't have had what he considered ideal splits as a novice 800m runner & 1'43.25 is working number