Do I have a shot at four minutes?

I've always felt (intuitively) that I needed more long workouts early, and even mid season, as well. I didn't really get to do this much because we trained to win during indoor as much as outdoor. Mainly because of our head track coach, not the distance coach. This meant more workouts over winter, speed in Feb, and a fairly big taper for conference. I would generally see some, but minimal, improvement from indoor to outdoor.

What about long runs? Are the 10 milers and 90min runs that I described in my original post sufficient? or should I do them more often now that I wont have to race every other week?

I had a similar experience w/ college (conference being the primary focus) and saw little improvement until I was on my own and able to really focus on running really well in the summer. Per your long runs, if you've been handling 15 milers during the fall (solid runs w/ team members and not jogging w/ the girlfriend on Sundays), I'd incorporate a longer run once/week that is a bit longer than 10 (instead, right under 20% of your weekly mileage). Run it with buddies of similar ability at a relatively casual pace, if you can--and when feeling good, pick up the last 3-4 miles to the faster end of your current pace for your 10 miler. When not feeling good, just slog through it. Increase this long run with increases in mileage (and I think you could do well with increasing your mileage a bit in the spring--but wait for next season and experiment with this--two many modifications are a recipe for disaster). Another thing I'd incorporate now is working up to longer tempo runs in the fall and continuing into the winter and early spring so that you can handle 8-10 miles at a faster pace (eventually getting to the 5:10-5:20 range). Since you've done 6 mile tempos, I'd start around the 4-6 range this season. If you're already able to hit somewhere in that range of pace for 6, then try 7, 8, etc.Remember that tempos should be hard efforts but shouldn't feel like over-extended efforts, so keep this in mind and plan a realistic tempo plan accordingly. I would think of starting in the 4-6 range this season (unless you're finding a 6 miler at 5:10 relatively easy), then progress to 6-8 milers). If 4 is hard in the 5:20 range, break it up into two intervals; or if 4 is OK, but 6 is a beast, do 3x2 miles or 2x3miles w/ 1-2 min rest at pace, etc.) Be careful increasing these runs too quickly (i.e a 10 miler might be 2-3 years away at that pace). Also, lots of rest (maybe 2-3 days of easier running before another interval session) when you begin to incorporate these into your spring regime--as these runs are sometimes deceivingly taxing (you feel great the rest of that week, but can't figure out why you're dragging 2 weeks down the road)--so be careful you don't go the darkside. Once you become accustomed to these, you can revert back to your typical days of rest between workouts (for me, I always needed 2 days between interval workouts and sometimes 3 after a longer interval or tempo workout). I'm a firm believer that tempo runs can be incorporated into training for a miler all the way up into the competitive/peaking season (and even then, with a long season a 3-4 mile tempo run can pay dividends). Two of my 1500/mile PRs in successive years both came approx. 2 weeks after hitting an 8 miler in 5:10s. Again, best of luck to you this season.

Am I dreaming... wrote:

I've always felt (intuitively) that I needed more long workouts early, and even mid season, as well. I didn't really get to do this much because we trained to win during indoor as much as outdoor. Mainly because of our head track coach, not the distance coach. This meant more workouts over winter, speed in Feb, and a fairly big taper for conference. I would generally see some, but minimal, improvement from indoor to outdoor.

What about long runs? Are the 10 milers and 90min runs that I described in my original post sufficient? or should I do them more often now that I wont have to race every other week?

oh please wrote:

FYI, 311m people in the USA, so 20,000 people is .00006%, and there are probably 40 people at the most who could currently run sub 4, which is .0000001% of the population.

I am aware of how many people there are in the US. I said that there are maybe 20,000 people who can run under 55 for a 400m.

.1% of 20,000 is 20 people. So I said maybe 20 guys can run under 4:00, you say 40. Still 20-40 guys.

I know that my estimate on the 400m thing isn't precise, but it's relation to sub-4:00 milers is pretty close. That illustrates my point. If anyone who can run 55 for a 400m can run sub-4:00, then why don't we all just man up and do it.

You are an idiot.

to the original poster, did you go to high school in West Virginia by any chance?

this is probably just some absolutely crazy, weird coincidence but your PR's pretty much match up exactly with a guy i went to college with...

old military vet wrote:

he also ran 154 during outdoor where he got beaten by two other guys if i remember correctly. so no, he was in 154 shape.

Yeah maybe. You're talking about this race:

1 1 Hrezi, Mohamed FR-1 Central Connecticut 1:52.81 10

2 2 DuPaul, Mike SR-4 Hartford 1:54.06 8

3 3 Masters, Riley SO-2 Maine 1:54.73 6

4 4 Boulat, Edouard JR-3 Colgate 1:55.79 5

5 5 Schwaibold, Dan JR-3 Colgate 1:56.75 4

6 8 Waterbury, Mike FR-1 Central Connecticut 1:59.40 1

7 17 Forbes, Malcolm SR-4 American Int'l 2:02.91 -

8 Hopper, Dan FR-1 Central Connecticut NT -

Mike DuPaul, who beat Masters by .67 seconds went on to run 1:51.30 later that season.

Basically you're claiming he is a 1:54 guy because of one indoor solo 1:54 and one outdoor 1:54 where he lost to an eventual 1:51-low guy by .67 seconds. My guess is he's faster than 1:54. I won't pull a ventolin and try to guess at how much faster. And I don't think it's fair for him to claim anything other than what he's actually run for his pr, but let's be intellectually honest here. The signs point to sub-1:54.

Brad, you can stop posting about yourself!

I said you didn't have to go faster than 51 to break 4 mins for the mile

But it's been taken too far. Sure there are a couple of 1:54 guys who have gone sub 4 mile, but I reckon if you run 1:53/4 you are much more likely to run around 4:05 or slower (4:05 is still a good time for a mile - don't forget that's well under 3:50 for 1500m

Where is Ventolin when you need him?

Train like you want to run a 3:55. You'll end up running a 3:58.7 on accident.

very funny wrote:

to the original poster, did you go to high school in West Virginia by any chance?

this is probably just some absolutely crazy, weird coincidence but your PR's pretty much match up exactly with a guy i went to college with...

Nope just a coincidence, my PRs match up with a whole lot of people. 4:2X hs guys that go to college and take off about 20s are a dime a dozen.

I think you definitely have a shot. You can either do it, or get really close.

I was 3:44 for 1500 at age 23 with slower 200 and 400 times than you, and slower 3000m, 5000m and 10k xc times than you.

And, there are lots of fast races out there now days with pace setters.

Good luck!!!

read "winning running" and "better training for distance runners" by peter coe. if you train like an xc runner, you're going to run miles like an xc runner. slowly.

To the man who said Gerrouj never broke 1:50:

1) His 1500m PB pace, if evenly ran, is sub 1:50 pace.

2) He closed his last 800m of the Athens 1500m in 1:46.high or 1:47.low.

3) He has a purported 1:42 time trial, but that's not documented

4) He has actually run 1:47 in an open 800m race.

_____________________________________________________

However, I do know a guy who has run 1:52 (all out in shape) and also run 3:40 for the 1500 and 3:59 for the mile. However, he has also run 13:50ish for 5000m. Granted I shouldn't really be dispensing advice, as my 1500m is only 3:51 and I have far worse endurance than you, but I would suggest getting a coach that can really develop distance oriented milers.

I ran 3:45.8 this past year with p.r.'s of 1:54 low (SPLIT, so maybe even slower open), 8:27 3k, and 15:01 5k (although that was from junior year, so I probably could have gone a little faster).

My yearly progression was as follows:

4:18 grade 11 split 1:58 low for 800

4:18 grade 12, split 1:55 high for 800 (knee and sinus problems)

3:59 1500 frosh year (femoral stress fracture in the fall)

4:01 1500 soph year (consistent year of training, but probably focused on speed > strength too much)

3:51 1500 junior year, split 1:54 high for 800

3:45 1500 senior year, split 1:54 low for 800

I would agree that you probably need at least 1:51-2 open 800 speed to break 4:00 unless you have otherworldly strength. This is especially because you already appear to have better strength than I had when I ran 3:45 (I was never in 8:20 shape), and so there might be less room for improvement there.

However, I still think you should definitely be able to get down to the 3:45 range even if your speed doesn't improve too much. Some things that worked for me...

1) Getting a LOT stronger (I went from running 27:30 for 8k my sophomore year to 25:01 senior year). There really was nothing radical here - I just upped my mileage gradually where I was running some weeks in the 90s for cross senior year, and 70's-80's in track, and keeping my mileage relatively high most of the track season.

2) Combined with number 1, I held my mileage pretty high during indoor still, probably to the detriment of my indoor season. However, I think if you're going after a big p.r. goal like this, you need a long build-up to take a few solid stabs at it, as opposed to trying to peak multiple times a year.

3) Speed endurance: While my 400/800 speed really didn't improve much despite a lot of speed development and plyometrics (although in fairness I only ran it once senior year), I became a lot more efficient running at or near race pace.

Even to run 3:45, you need to be able to run 60's like it's your job, as well as feel comfortable running several seconds / 400 faster than that in practice.

I knew I was ready to run 3:45 when I ran the following workout:

800 (1:58), 800 jog, 800 (1:57), 800 jog, 400 (58), 400 jog, 400 (56), 400 jog, 400 (57), 400 jog, 4x300 in 43,42,43,42 w/ 100 walk rest.

4) Staying healthy for ~1-2 years is obviously the most important thing. Doing a lot of extra push-ups / core, foam-rolling like crazy, and ice-bathing after workouts really helped me in this regard.

2)

it seems pretty stupid that everyone is saying he needs to bring down his 400 time to have a shot at sub-4, or bring down his 5k time enough that he will have enough strength to compensate for his lack of speed.

IMO the main thing he needs to do if he wants to break 4 is BRING DOWN HIS MILE TIME. to do that he obviously has to improve both speed AND strength. but since his focus is on his mile time he needs to train for the mile, so focusing on lowering his time for some shorter or longer distance is silly and misguided. if he achieves his goal and gets himself into sub-4 shape he will surely be able to PR in the 400 and 5k as well. but there is no need for him to PR in those events before he PRs in the mile.

planC wrote:

read "winning running" and "better training for distance runners" by peter coe. if you train like an xc runner, you're going to run miles like an xc runner. slowly.

Then go and read the BMC article on Crammy, or many books/articles on Ovett. You'll realise there is more than one way to do it.

If you have to ask, then NO you do not have a chance

Congratulations, out of 57 posters thus far, you have the first negative comment. I'm more concerned with HOW do I get there than CAN I get there.

First, you need to find a coach that will help you out. I think you are putting in too many miles to prepare specifically for the mile/1500m. I am guessing around 45-55 miles and doing a lot of speedwork targeting improvement on 400-800m times. You need to get used to coming by at 1'57 and hanging on.

You are 23 and you have until you are about 31 to make sure you peak. Don't stress because like most say, it will not happen overnight.

SPEED!!!!!!!

or lagat, el guerrouj, asbel kiprop...