Threshold question, train at it? below? Above?

Perhaps we can approach this more simply. Consider the following statement.

a) My current 400m time predicts a fast 800m but I cannot achieve that 800m time.

b) My current 400m time is not much faster (i.e. it is not 3-5 secs/lap faster) than my target for 800m.

If a) is true, then the runner lacks specific endurance and should work on improving that to be able to run the 800m performance "predicted" by their 400m ability

If b) is true, the athlete lacks 400m pace and would be better off working on improving 200-400m pace (and glycolytic ability) and then add that on to his/her existing strong endurance.

Here's a valuable axiom: work on your weakness.

Ö wrote:

Antonio Cabral wrote:

LT improve doesn’t interest at all in 800m, some interest in 1500m/mile, interesting in 5000m, real interest in 10k-HM and very interest in the marathon distance.

Best LT can be an handicap in 800m because short distances do require high lactate concentration.

A distance runner (from 800m and up) will need to improve his/her endurance. That means that the LT should improve. The velocity of VO2max should improve. The improvement capacity of endurance is much much bigger than the improvement capacity of "speed". It´s just more important not to lose the speed at shorter distances while improving the endurance. This way the similar lactate amounts will be shifted at faster paces than before.

I also believe that a marathon runner will need much more work a medium/LT paces than an 800m runner, for example.

Ö

Don’t forget that when i said that the LT doesn’t interest in 800m events or poor interest it I just tried to contextualize and I tried to post about LT relate to every event distance not 800m specifically. What I said about the 800m is relate the 800m with longer distance runs from 1500m to the marathon. Besides I don’t discriminate the need Lt in 800m training by muscular fiber type, what can be done.

However, if what you name endurance it’s what I name specific resistance, I agree with you that the important one quality in 800m it’s the endurance, specific strength endurance or what I name specific resistance. I agree. It’s the first key of 800m improve.

I also may agree with you that if the endurance is important then the LT might contribute, but in the case of 800m it’s so small contribute that has a fourth of five level of training interest in my opinion, and in some 800m runners can be omitted as training pace .

Besides, as I said before, every other training out of the LT pace zone, produces some positive effect on individual LT capacity. I said that every resistance workout – what you name strength endurance workout – or even an all flat out workout, do produce improve in LT capacity.

Relate to the 800m when you do very specific workout with direct focus on 800m, like hard repetitions with long recovery or short ones with short recovery length you are improve the LT as well indirectly. As that very specific workouts require few days or active training recovery, then your 800m training focus shall be on that workouts and not include LT workouts between the 2 hard workouts.

Now, if you please, let’s consider all distance run events from 800m up: 1500m/mile, 3000m, 5000m, 10000m, HM and Marathon.

Why do you think that the 800m is the only distance event that the world best performances are done with the first half faster than the second one ?

For instance. Rudisha, the day he broke the 800m WR, what he did twice, why do you think that in both occasions he did the first lap faster than the second lap ?

Look. I don’t mean about 800m with strategic wins that what sometimes happens in the champs that I name 800m with an 650m warmup followed by the last 150m of sprint, when the goal target it’s to just win, and not run the fast as you can. I mean PBs attempts with success. What we see is that despite the runner might be a ST type relate to 800m he tends to do the first half faster than the second lap.

This 800m pace strategy of a fast start, it´s not usual in longer distances. It doesn’t happen in no one occasion in every 1500m/mile, 3000m, 5000m, 10000m, HM and marathon world record since the last 40 years ago, with very rare exceptions – might be Filbert Bayi 1500m WR during the Commonwealth Games in Christchurch is one single exception.

Conclusion. Every world best performances from 1500m to the marathon is run in a kind of negative split pace to some extend, but the 800m is run with the first 400m faster than the second one.

It´s an evidence that the pace decreases in 800m and not on theother longer distance events. This happens because since the 800m specialist enters in the pathway of his VO2max and exceed the VO2 consumption, he needs to take most of energy from the anaerobic but LACTIC system to attempt to hold on the same fast pace he is on, and the contribute of the LT is useless. If the contribution of LT have a positive impact in the 800m, the runner would be able to continue in the same pace and not decrease, and this also happens with submaximal/slow 800m performances, like meetings or trials or champs, mostly strategic runs done with a slow start or done by one runner that by some reason, doesn’t want to run his best performance of the day, but one 800m in negative split doesn’t happens at 800m best performances. Except if you are a 5000m or 1000m specialist and you try the 800m, but even in this case, this long distance specialist usually does the first lap faster than the second.

As to why the 800m records are the only ones set with a 'positive split', some data was published a couple of years back suggesting that a fast start strategy is more effective than a slow split strategy in events of ~2 minutes because VO2 kinetics at the start were accelerated, thereby 'sparing' some of the anaerobic capacity.

800m WR splits

1:46.6 Rudolf Harbig 52.8/53.8 +1.0

1:45.7 Roger Moens 52.6/53.3 +0.7

1:44.3 Peter Snell 50.6/53.7 +2.9

1:44.3+ Jim Ryun 53.0/51.3 -1.7

1:44.40 Ralph Doubell 51.2/53.2 +2.0

1:44.3 Dave Wottle 52.9/51.4 -1.5

1:44.0+ Wohlhuter 51.7/52.3 +0.6

1:43.7 Marcello Fiasconaro 51.2/52.5 +1.3

1:43.5+ Rick Wohlhuter 50.7/52.8 +2.1

1:43.50 Juantorena 50.9/52.6 +1.7

1:43.44 Alberto Juantorena 51.4/52.0 +0.6

1:42.33 Coe 50.6/51.7 +1.1

1:41.73 Seb Coe 49.7/52.0 +2.3

1:41.73 Kipketer 49.6/52.1 +2.5

1:41.11 Wilson Kipketer 49.3/51.8 +2.5

1:41.24 Kipketer 48.3/52.9 +4.6

1:41.09 David Rudisha 49.1/52.0 +2.9

5000m splits

Lauri Lehtinen (1932)- 14:16.9 (2:46.5, 2:54.0, 2:55.5, 2:57.5, 2:43.4)

Taisto Maki (1939)- 14:08.8 (2:46.0, 2:53.0, 2:53.5, 2:52.0, 2:44.3)

Emil Zatopek (1942)- 13:58.2 (2:40.0, 2:47.0, 2:51.5, 2:50.5, 2:49.2)

Vladimir Kuts (1954)- 13:56.6 (2:44.0, 2:52.7, 2:47.2, 2:48.4, 2:44.3)

Chris Chataway (1954)- 13:51.6 (2:41.5, 2:50.1, 2:44.9, 2:53.4, 2:41.7)

Vladimir Kuts (1954)- 13:51.2 (2:38.4, 2:52.4, 2:51.8, 2:45.0, 2:43.6)

Sandor Iharos (1955)- 13:50.8 (2:44.0, 2:49.4, 2:49.8, 2:46.4, 2:41.2)

Vladimir Kuts (1955)- 13:46.8 (2:42.0, 2:48.0, 2:46.0, 2:50.0, 2:40.8)

Sandor Iharos (1955)- 13:40.6 (2:42.0, 2:46.0, 2:48.0, 2:51.0, 2:33.6)

Gordon Pirie (1956)- 13:36.8 (2:36.0, 2:46.0, 2:47.0, 2:48.0, 2:39.8)

Vladimir Kuts (1957)- 13:35.0 (2:37.8, 2:46.5, 2:44.4, 2:44.2, 2:42.1)

Ron Clarke (1965)- 13:34.8 (2:43.8, 2:43.6, 2:44.4, 2:43.1, 2:39.8)

Ron Clarke (1965)- 13:33.6 (2:39.5, 2:41.9, 2:48.0, 2:46.1, 2:38.0)

Ron Clarke (1965)- 13:25.8 (2:39.1, 2:41.3, 2:43.7, 2:44.6, 2:37.0)

Kipchoge Keino (1965)- 13:24.2 (4:16.0, 4:17.8, 4:24.8)

Ron Clarke (1966)- 13:16.6 (2:40.2, 2:36.2, 2:41.0, 2:41.6, 2:37.6)

Lasse Viren (1972)- 13:16.4 (2:36.6, 2:41.9, 2:41.8, 2:42.3, 2:33.7)

Emiel Puttemans (1972)- 13:13.0 (2:33.7, 2:38.3, 2:39.2, 2:44.4, 2:37.4)

Dick Quax (1977)- 13:12.86 (2:39.21, 2:39.21, 2:37.51, 2:42.99, 2:33.94)

Henry Rono (1978)- 13:08.4 (2:42.0, 2:36.0, 2:39.5, 2:37.0, 2:33.9)

Henry Rono (1981)- 13:06.20 (2:38.5, 2:38.5, 2:38.0, 2:38.0, 2:33.2)

David Moorcroft (1982)- 13:00.41 (2:38.0, 2:34.6, 2:37.6, 2:38.5, 2:31.7)

Said Aouita (1985)- 13:00.40 (2:35.14, 2:38.68, 2:37.18, 2:41.16, 2:28.24)

Said Aoiuta (1987)- 12:58.39 (2:35.35, 2:37.68, 2:33.34, 2:39.68, 2:32.34))

Haile Gebrselassie (1994)- 12:56.96 (2:36.6, 2:37.1, 2:37.2, 2:37.4, 2:28.7)

Moses Kiptanui (1995)- 12:55.30 (2:35.2, 2:36.6, 2:35.2, 2:36.2, 2:32.1)

Haile Gebrselassie (1995)- 12:44.39 (2:34.3, 2:34.7, 2:34.0, 2:31.2, 2:30.2)

Haile Gebrselassie (1997)- 12:41.86 (2:34.6, 2:32.0, 2:31.6, 2:35.0, 2:28.7)

Daniel Komen (1997)- 12:39.74 (2:32.7, 2:32.7, 2:31.9, 2:31.21, 2:31.21)

Haile Gebrselassie (1998)- 12:39.36 (2:34.8, 2:31.6, 2:32.9, 2:32.8, 2:27.3)

Kenenisa Bekele (2004)- 12:37.35 (2:33.24, 2:32.23, 2:31.87, 2:30.59, 2:29.42)

10000m WR splits

Jean Bouin (1911)- 15:11.24 / 15:40.24 = 30:58.48 (3:09.36)

Paavo Nurmi (1921)- 15:06.1 / 15:34.1 = 30:40.2 (3:04.6)

Ville Ritola (1924)- 15:14.0 / 15:21.4 = 30:35.4 (2:55.4)

Ville Ritola (1924)- 15:00.12 / 15:23.0 = 30:23.12 (3:03.36)

Paavo Nurmi (1924)- 14:52.5 / 15:13.6 = 30:06.1 (N/A)

Ilmari Salminen (1937)- 15:01.0 / 15:04.5 = 30:05.5 (2:54.5)

Taisto Maki (1938)- 14:59.0 / 15:03.0 = 30:02.0 (2:57.0)

Taisto Maki (1939)- 14:58.2 / 14:54.4 = 29:52.6 (2:54.2)

Viljo Heino (1944)- 14:49.4 / 14:46.0 = 29:35.4 (2:50.8)

Emil Zatopek (1949)- 14:39.5 / 14:48.7 = 29:28.2 (2:52.2)

Viljo Heino (1949)- 14:44.0 / 14:43.2 = 29:27.2 (2:49.8)

Emil Zatopek (1949)- 14:38.0 / 14:43.2 = 29:21.2 (2:50.7)

Emil Zatopek (1950)- 14:37.0 / 14:25.6 = 29:02.6 (2:47.6)

Emil Zatopek (1953)- 14:34.8 / 14:26.8 = 29:01.6 (2:44.8)

Emil Zatopek (1954)- 14:27.6 / 14:26.6 = 28:54.2 (2:46.8)

Sandor Iharos (1956)- 14:14.2 / 14:28.5 = 28:42.7 (2:55.7)

Vladimir Kuts (1956)- 14:08.0 / 14:22.4 = 28:30.4 (2:47.9)

Pyotr Bolotnikov (1960)- 14:07.0 / 14:11.8 = 28:18.8 (2:43.8)

Pyotr Bolotnikov (1962)- 14:04.0 / 14:14.2 = 28:18.2 (2:43.7)

Ron Clarke (1963)- 14:06.5 / 14:09.1 = 28:15.6 (2:35.5)

Ron Clarke (1965)- 14:02.0 / 14:12.0 = 28:14.0 (2:41.4)

Ron Clarke (1965)- 13:45.0 / 13:54.4 = 27:39.4 (2:40.4)

Lasse Viren (1972)- 13:43.9 / 13:54.4 = 27:38.4 (2:29.2)

Dave Bedford (1973)- 13:39.4 / 13:51.4 = 27:30.8 (2:40.4)

Samson Kimobwa (1977)- 13:48.7 / 13:41.77 = 27:30.47 (2:44.6)

Henry Rono (1978)- 13:49.0 / 13:33.4 = 27:22.4 (2:36.9)

Fernando Mamede (1984)- 13:45.40 / 13:28.41 = 27:13.81 (2:32.72)

Arturo Barrios (1989)- 13:32.39 / 13:35.84 = 27:08.23 (2:35.67)

Richard Chelimo (1993)- 13:33.8 / 13:34.11 = 27:07.91 (2:39.4)

Yobes Ondieki (1993)- 13:28.05 / 13:30.33 = 26:58.38 (2:38.2)

William Sigei (1994)- 13:32.71 / 13:19.52 = 26:52.23 (2:33.9)

Haile Gebreselassie (1995)- 13:21.4 / 13:22.13 = 26:43.53 (2:34.7)

Salah Hissou (1996)- 13:25.45 / 13:12.63 = 26:38.08 (2:36.11)

Haile Gebreselassie (1997)- 13:16.74 / 13:14.58 = 26:31.32 (2:36.67)

Paul Tergat (1997)- 13:18.0 / 13:09.85 = 26:27.85 (2:35.75)

Haile Gebreselassie (1998)- 13:11.7 / 13:11.05 = 26:22.75 (2:31.2)

Kenenisa Bekele (2004)- 13:14.42 / 13:05.89 = 26:20.31 (2:31.97)

A fast start makes maximal use of the ATP/CP energy system which is effectively "clean energy" and allows for a quick opening 50-70m at little to no metabolic cost. Obviously such a tactic is not once again available at the start of lap two.

Thus lap one (50% of the race) is primarily phosphagen/glycolytic while lap two is essentially glycolytic/oxidative and therefore slower.

This change in predominant energy systems between the first and second halfs of the race does not tend to occur in other events (except perhaps the 100m) when again the athlete generally slows down in the latter stages of the race.

I think every one of your posts is way over my head. I wish I knew what you were saying because I know you know what you are talking about.

I always need easy ways to think about these things.An easy way to think about LT is your body having two engines, an aerobic and anaerobic engine. Lactate is the "output" of one, and with training, can be an "input" of the other.You can improve lactate threshold in two ways: 1) by making the anaerobic engine weaker, and/or 2) making the aerobic engine stronger.Middle distance races, like the 800m and 1500m require strong anaerobic engines, primarily, with strong aerobic engines being secondary. Maximizing LT at all costs would ultimately require weakening the anaerobic engine, and be counter-productive to performance.For longer races, like the 10K up to the marathon, as the distance gets longer, the strength of the aerobic engine becomes increasingly more important.What I get from Antonio in the last two posts:- The Billat study shows the importance of the size and power of the anaerobic engine for the 800m and 1500m events.- Antonio uses lap times/split times of different non-tactical "best" performances of 800m, 5K, and 10K, to show that 800m is not like the longer events. The "endurance" required to finish the last 100m of an 800m fast, is not the "endurance" you need for fast 5Ks, and 10Ks. (First laps also get a creatine phosphate boost, so, even if I agree with the conclusions, I have some reservations about using lap times to make the argument. First 1K of "best" 5Ks and 10Ks are typically faster too.)He also says that LT is improved at all paces, not only around a narrow "LT zone", so an unusual focus on training around LT paces is not required. It is better to think in terms of training that prepares your body by simulating racing conditions (i.e. sufficient volumes of 95-105% speed), and the prerequisite training necessary to support that.

marke wrote:

I think every one of your posts is way over my head. I wish I knew what you were saying because I know you know what you are talking about.

We need to clarify the energy systems to make this thread intelligible.

ATP is the energy source ultimately, and it is produced (resynthesized) by several different reactions both aerobic and anaerobic.

The first and most powerful resynthesis of ATP comes from Creatine Phosphate and this supplies energy for only a very short time, about 2 seconds of peak effort and a steady decline over the next few seconds. This is anaerobic.

Then there are two more main supplies of ATP aneobically.

Glycolysis, which comes from the breakdown of blood glucose

Glycogenolysis which comes from the breakdown of muscle glycogen, and supplies six times as much ATP as glycolysis.

At the same time as glycolysis and glycogenolysis occurs there is another reaction coupled to these reactions called the Lactate Dehydrogenase reaction and this supplies Lactate. Lactate is produced anaerobically and the lactate molecules are further broken down to supply ATP aerobically in the Mitochondria of skeletal and cardiac (heart) muscle.

Some of this lactate goes to mitochondria in the muscle cell where it was produced, and the rest is transported in the blood stream, from where it is distributed to other muscles and about 20% of it is recycled in the liver and reconverted to glycogen to help maintain the liver supply of glycogen, which in turn supplies the blood with glucose.

The above reactions are the main supply of energy in races up to 10k. In longer races, and slow to medium paced running, energy is also supplied aerobically by the breakdown of triglycerides (fats). Fats also supply a large proportion of our energy during rest.

All we need now is a breakdown of the relative proportion of those different reaction in different races.

Any volunteers?

All we need now is a breakdown of the relative proportion of those different reaction in different races.

It all comes down to oxygen - you are either racing with it or without it at any given part of a race.

Basics:

anaerobic - without oxygen

aerobic - with oxygen

The sprinters and the distance runners with speed can run faster anaerobically (without oxygen). They have trained their muscles (through short/fast repeats) to go longer and longer without needing as much oxygen.

The slow pokes out there, they can compete in distance events by improving their aerobic (with oxygen) pace. That can be done by putting in a lot of training miles. The quickest way (that I have personally discovered) to max out the aerobic pace is with some quality lactate threshold runs. (I stated on a previous thread that an LT run every 2 to 5 days is ideal in order to keep improving the aerobic system.)

The lactate threshold pace does vary depending on the total distance for that run. There's another thread with someone asking about how long the LT run should be for an 800m/mile runner. The answer to that is it depends on the runner's weekly mileage. If the (world-class) runner is at high enough levels, a 20 mile LT run is possible. (See Peter Snell's training before breaking the 800m world record.

)

The challenge with coaching long distance runners is developing both the aerobic and the anaerobic systems. Anaerobic training requires enough recovery days to prevent injury, but too many recovery days and the aerobic system deteriorates.

Roger Bannister was probably the first person to figure this stuff out scientifically and pragmatically (by being a runner himself).

"It's a question of spreading the available energy, aerobic and anaerobic, evenly over four minutes. If you run one part too fast, you pay a price. If you run another part more slowly your overall time is slower."

Roger Bannister

Again, the reference point for how everyone races is their body's ability to race with oxygen. Some people can race the 800m distance and up on low mileage with lots of speed work. Eventually they'll either get injured or beaten by someone running more mileage.

Kids in high school usually race this way:

(A very inexperienced runner will go out fast, slow down, speed up, slow down, etc. throughout the entire race.)

Runners in national championship type races usually race this way (with a slow pace):

A lot of people think that a slow pace automatically means the person with the fastest sprinting speed over the final 400m will win. This is not always the case! The person who is the most aerobically fit will "bank" more oxygen during the slow portion of the race, so that in the last mad dash to the finish they don't have to go into as much oxygen debt (vs. the competition) to pull out the victory.

So, in conclusion, max out your aerobic ability through a training base, then while maintaining that system, target anaerobic (speed) work.

I don't know how to observe and measure all these different reactions, during a race. I know how to measure speed, distance, oxygen, and lactate.Seems like the proportions wouldn't stay constant during a race (i.e. we need many measurements during a race). Also the values would change significantly as a function of training, or even as a function of the athlete.Drawing conclusions from such a large collection of data would require a complex analysis -- maybe that's outside the scope of a thread on how to manage your LT with training.

J.O. wrote:

We need to clarify the energy systems to make this thread intelligible.

...

All we need now is a breakdown of the relative proportion of those different reaction in different races.

Any volunteers?