Salazar, Ritz, and the Perfect Stride

DublAK2 wrote:

It doesn't appear as though Bekele mimicked Geb's form when he was up and coming. People run differently.

Skip to 0:53. There are ever so slight differences...

I recall reading that Bekele started as a sprinter and moved up in distance as he lost. Might explain his stride and strength.

Busted wrote:

Not a "great" article, but certainly an interesting one. Complete overhaul of Ritz's form is a recipe for frustration and possible long-term injuries, which will likely result in Ritz flipping AlSal the bird. The problem with this approach is it risks injury at a time when Ritz is in the prime years of his career and an approach where AlSal is putting all apples in one basket - if this does not payoff Ritz could end up resenting AlSal for a long time! Perhaps not well though through?

Getting his training down with the right mix of endurance, speed and recovery to maximize Ritz's talent and potential during his prime years, with some minor tweaking of his running form might make more sense and would certainly help to minimize risk of long-term injury.

Will be interesting to assess the results after Sunday...

Wait, Ritz is at risk of injury NOW? As opposed to before? He's been injury prone for years. Perhaps changing his form is the right thing to do...training with his old form usually made him hurt, so it's not like he had much to lose. He says in the article that he was tired of running 2:10 and didn't think he could train enough to get better without getting hurt, to say nothing of running as fast as someone with better mechanics.

Sprinters work on their form all the time, partially to increase their power, and partially to increase their efficiency. Surely power and efficiency are important for distance running.

PhysMech wrote:

Also, africans have smaller and more dense bones, better suited to a higher impact, more bounding stride.

Here's a link to a graph showing this:

oldeagle wrote:

naia champ wrote:

what is this "thumbs down" business? I think Al Sal is wrong about that one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/23/sports/olympics/23strides.html?_r=1

Swing your arms like you're running and hold your hands like you're giving a "thumbs up" to someone.

Now swing your arms like you're running and hold your hands with your thumb curled lightly over the top of the fist.

You should be able to feel the difference in tenseness in your forearm. The picture you linked shows everyone with their thumbs down, so you probably just didn't understand what he meant.

Actually, if you examine the picture closely, you can see that the left thumb of the runner wearing 2971 is pointing up, and Bekele's left hand is open and it looks like his left thumb is pointing up also.

Wile E Coyote wrote:

Actually, if you examine the picture closely, you can see that the left thumb of the runner wearing 2971 is pointing up, and Bekele's left hand is open and it looks like his left thumb is pointing up also.

Basically all this crap about thumb direction is way overthinking it. Keep your hand in a loose fist and you'll be fine.

just sayering wrote:

Basically all this crap about thumb direction is way overthinking it. Keep your hand in a loose fist and you'll be fine.

That was my point - this thumb direction business is a load of nonsense.

I don't think there is anything wrong with tinkering with form... ESPECIALLY for someone who is injury prone. Maybe tweaking his form will make Ritz more durable. Maybe not. Its worth a shot. Also, everyone works hard at Ritz's level. If he wants to compete with the best, logging 120 miles a week, running long tempos, V02Max work and sprint sessions isn't enough. He needs to get into the gym, get PT and Massage, change his form, work with a psychiatrist, etc. He won't beat the Bekele's of the world by out working them or out talenting them. He will beat them because he did something that gave him an edge.

I actually agree with Salazar. There has to be a set of principles out there that governs ideal form. But, I think its a mistake to assume Bekele has it. We know Geb does not (he has the funny arm carriage from carrying his books to school). Any wasted motion, breaking of the stride, etc, is going to hold you back... if even by fractions of a percent.

I like how people think what Salazar's doing is novel. I really don't understand why the issue of correct form has never been a big deal in US distance running. Coaches and other people involved always talk about %miles run at VO2 max vs total miles run in a week vs speed vs whatever and all of the various training types and applications while paying little attention to fixing form. In reality you can never reach pinnacle of performance if your fundamental running mechanics are flawed.

In my opinion, Dr. Romanov has expressed a best theory of (long distance) running mechanics with his "Pose Method." I know it's not perfect, and a lot of people have beef with it, but honestly I haven't read a consistent explanation that works so well prior to what he put forward. (I believe the first publication of his work worldwide was in 1997, but it was out in Russia in 1981 according to wikipedia). Salazar would do himself service if he actually reads Dr. Romanov's stuff. In fact, every US coach that hasn't already would benefit. The concepts and drills that Romanov talks about make a lot of sense and are pretty straight forward. And they've certainly worked for me.

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

Bekele ran barefoot as a child; Ritz ran in clunky Nikes...that is all you need to know.

I think Bekele actually raced x-c barefoot well into his young career.

Exactly. Ritz would benefit most by ditching trips to Dallas to get videotaped, or running on 60m pressure sensors, and get barefoot.

He should spend hours every day, barefoot, walking, jogging and doing drills and strides on those manicured lawns at Nike HQ.

He can then do a large volume of running in waffles on the Alter-G treadmill.

This will not only improve his form, and get it as close to "African" as possible, but also make his feet indestructible from all the barefoot strengthening. Heck, Nike markets the Free to piggyback on the barefoot craze, yet Ritz is still pounding out the miles with a huge squishy high-heel shoe; see:

All this talk about how perfect the Africans' form and foot placement is, and no mention of why it's perfect: they grew up barefoot!

Anyone remember the LAST New Yorker article about a white American marathoner that got a lot of play on letsrun?

It's here:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/08/11/080811fa_fact_hessler

Interesting to see how things have turned out.

Also, Bekele is self-coached.

I believe Ritz was definitely showing progress through the years, and despite his time with setbacks, his performances did improve year after year. I have been witness to workouts later in his career when with Hudson made me believe he was indeed capable of Ryan Hall levels if not better if and when he caught a break.

While I do think bio mechanics should play a role as part in an ongoing attempt to streamline Ritz or any runner's system of running training, this needs to fit within the context or scope of that which has made things work in the first place.

Fact is, Hudson had incorporated drills and hill sprints successfully prior to Ritz working with Alberto as a means to help Ritz and Hudson's athletes become more efficient.

As coach Hudson would say, and I paraphrase, do things in a way to support the main elements or strengths of the runner that are carefully evaluated based on the potential risk to reward. Seems like "common sense" to me.

From the way I re read this article, Alberto describes this form training methodology as an only if situation, that can be the only chance to determine winning vs bronze or placing. How can Alberto know this? It comes off to me as arrogant or hysterical. Either way, making major changes based on hypothesis or conjecture no matter how attractive is not the way to design bridges, nor do I think it reasonable at this stage in Dathan's career.

It seems a gross departure from Hudson's philosophy of doing A to support B vs doing A at the potential demise of B. Given the scant evidence to support A, doing anything other than small tests to establish the plausibility of the methods is not reasonable given the risks as noted too by Alberto.

I hope it works out for Ritz.

I wonder what Michael Johnson's hip separation angle was when he ran. My impression was that he had less knee lift than most other 200 and 400 guys.

Salazar's model of distance form (Bekele) missed this year due to injury!

I just want to know if Salazar and Nike have some sort of equipment to measure running speed in mph? If they do they can tell immediately if the change of form adds speed to Ritz' performance. If Ritz is not any faster all the changes he made will not improve his time. And, he'll be lucky to get that dreaded "bronze!"

Geb uses Adidas´heaviest trainers during his distance runs. He also use orthotics.

thanks for the clarification. I was thinking the entire forearm needed to be internally rotated.

I ABSOLUTELY love Salazar's passion for the sport and his open mindedness. But sometimes I wonder if he needs to ask himself if correcting that tiny fraction in the stride is worth the potential weeks or months of inconsistency brought about by injuries along the way. Will Ritz run faster at NYC with his new improved stride than he would have run with his old stride but with the last 15 months of consistent training. I can't help but think the consistency and capacity that those 15 months would have brought about probably would out-weigh the benefits of the slightly modified stride.

For me it goes back to the 4 tenets of training for distance running: consistency, capacity, frequency and mixture.

Other things you can do outside of these 4 that help are great, as long as they don't jeopardize these 4 things.

Just my opinion. I just don't think Ritz is a marathon runner.

People are talking about these changes like they injured Ritz for the first time. He's been plagued by injuries his entire career. Most injuries are caused by problems with form - overstriding, running on your toes, etc. Fixing his form will without question be better in the long run. There are incorrect and correct ways to run. Overstriding is incorrect. That's not actually a debatable topic. People are making it sound like searching for perfect form is a dangerous and mystical endeavor. That's unreasonable. They're professional athletes; form is as important, if not moreso, than anything else. Michael Phelps is still studying, analyzing, and tweaking his form. Sprinters, hurdlers, jumpers, vaulters, and throwers are constantly doing the same. Why should distance runners be exempt? It's that kind of backwards thinking that leads hs and college coaches to avoid the subject altogether - when it should be the first thing they address.